Who Made God?

The ultimate question?

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Who Made God?

#1  Postby zulumoose » Oct 07, 2016 2:10 pm

Just been thinking, isn't this the ultimate question to ask a theist?

The more you think about it the more it exposes the weaknesses in theism, in such a way that they have to see the weaknesses framed from their own point of view.

It ridicules their idea of complexity implying God.
It ridicules their assumption of agency.
It ridicules the assumption of a single, ultimate God.
It causes them to think about why their arguments aren't just as valid for a completely different conclusion.

Basically they cannot argue against the validity of the question without rendering their own thinking style invalid. They are forced to try and dismiss the question without reason, and then have to answer why their own arguments cannot also be dismissed without reason, or if they say there is no reason to establish the question in the first place, why is there a reason to ask whether there is any god at all?

Am I on a winner here? How can theists counter the implications of this question?
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Re: Who Made God?

#2  Postby chairman bill » Oct 07, 2016 2:26 pm

God is mysterious, and you are a mere human, so lack the ability to understand. If you just believed, simply had faith, you would know that God just is, and that would be enough.

Check mate.

Your error is in thinking that logic & reason has anything to do with supernaturalism.
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Re: Who Made God?

#3  Postby ScholasticSpastic » Oct 07, 2016 2:28 pm

chairman bill wrote:
Your error is in thinking that logic & reason has anything to do with supernaturalism.

:this:
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Re: Who Made God?

#4  Postby Zwaarddijk » Oct 07, 2016 6:06 pm

zulumoose wrote:Just been thinking, isn't this the ultimate question to ask a theist?

The more you think about it the more it exposes the weaknesses in theism, in such a way that they have to see the weaknesses framed from their own point of view.

It ridicules their idea of complexity implying God.
It ridicules their assumption of agency.
It ridicules the assumption of a single, ultimate God.
It causes them to think about why their arguments aren't just as valid for a completely different conclusion.

Basically they cannot argue against the validity of the question without rendering their own thinking style invalid. They are forced to try and dismiss the question without reason, and then have to answer why their own arguments cannot also be dismissed without reason, or if they say there is no reason to establish the question in the first place, why is there a reason to ask whether there is any god at all?

Am I on a winner here? How can theists counter the implications of this question?


It is a good question, although I wouldn't say the "ultimate" one. However, one problem is that it still might not achieve its intended effect - there's nothing that says the believer you are asking the question of will consider its implications, realise its consequences, etc.
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Re: Who Made God?

#5  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Oct 07, 2016 7:30 pm

zulumoose wrote:Just been thinking, isn't this the ultimate question to ask a theist?

The more you think about it the more it exposes the weaknesses in theism, in such a way that they have to see the weaknesses framed from their own point of view.

It ridicules their idea of complexity implying God.
It ridicules their assumption of agency.
It ridicules the assumption of a single, ultimate God.
It causes them to think about why their arguments aren't just as valid for a completely different conclusion.

Basically they cannot argue against the validity of the question without rendering their own thinking style invalid. They are forced to try and dismiss the question without reason, and then have to answer why their own arguments cannot also be dismissed without reason, or if they say there is no reason to establish the question in the first place, why is there a reason to ask whether there is any god at all?

Am I on a winner here? How can theists counter the implications of this question?

This question not only pre-supposes that someone made God, but that there was one single, original instance of someone or a group of someones making God.
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Re: Who Made God?

#6  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Oct 07, 2016 7:31 pm

ScholasticSpastic wrote:
chairman bill wrote:
Your error is in thinking that logic & reason has anything to do with supernaturalism.

:this:

Also, :this:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Who Made God?

#7  Postby Animavore » Oct 07, 2016 7:37 pm

I think natural selection is a better fit for a god than creationism. There's no way an intelligent being created any of the gods on display.
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Re: Who Made God?

#8  Postby jamest » Oct 07, 2016 9:10 pm

This is a naive thread in my eyes, as the usual attitude of most theists to this question (including myself), is that God is eternal and thus had no beginning... hence required no cause for its own existence. It wouldn't even make sense for God to be an effect of another cause! I mean, God cannot be 'God' if it's a mere effect of something else. That's why God is consistently defined as the primal cause of everything.

I was under the impression that most atheists were aware of this, hence my judgement that it's a naive thread.
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Re: Who Made God?

#9  Postby Animavore » Oct 07, 2016 9:27 pm

What did the first cause cause without something already there? Can't have a domino effect without dominos. You can't just act on nothing and cause a chain reaction of something. Yet this is what the first cause implies. A mover, flicking over nothing, and causing something. Unless you want to argue the dominos are also eternal, in which case running the tape backwards never gets you to a beginning. You won't find a first cause.
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Re: Who Made God?

#10  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Oct 07, 2016 9:51 pm

jamest wrote:This is a naive thread in my eyes, as the usual attitude of most theists to this question (including myself), is that God is eternal and thus had no beginning... hence required no cause for its own existence. It wouldn't even make sense for God to be an effect of another cause! I mean, God cannot be 'God' if it's a mere effect of something else. That's why God is consistently defined as the primal cause of everything.

I was under the impression that most atheists were aware of this, hence my judgement that it's a naive thread.

Except that it depends on your definition of 'God'.
God as it is commonly understood, refers to the Abrahamic god.
If you're talking about a general deity, then the ancient Greeks, Egyptians and several other cultures would argue with you that it depends on which god you're referring to, as neither Zeus, nor Ra, nor, for example Thor, created everything.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Who Made God?

#11  Postby Blackadder » Oct 07, 2016 10:01 pm

jamest wrote:This is a naive thread in my eyes, as the usual attitude of most theists to this question (including myself), is that God is eternal and thus had no beginning... hence required no cause for its own existence. It wouldn't even make sense for God to be an effect of another cause! I mean, God cannot be 'God' if it's a mere effect of something else. That's why God is consistently defined as the primal cause of everything.

I was under the impression that most atheists were aware of this, hence my judgement that it's a naive thread.


Either eternal existence is possible or it's not. If it is, then God is unnecessary. If it's not, then the question of who made God is relevant. Questioning the special pleading for God by theists may seem naive, but that's because the theists' position is itself naive. I await the barrage of sophistry to show that it is instead an exquisitely reasoned and profound position. :grin:
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Re: Who Made God?

#12  Postby jamest » Oct 07, 2016 10:32 pm

Animavore wrote:What did the first cause cause without something already there? Can't have a domino effect without dominos.

I can't speak for other theists, but you know that I'm an idealist who thinks that all creation happens in God's consciousness as an experience, so God doesn't need anything else to create something. Though I agree with your base concern and why this would be a problem for other theists.
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Re: Who Made God?

#13  Postby jamest » Oct 07, 2016 10:44 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
jamest wrote:This is a naive thread in my eyes, as the usual attitude of most theists to this question (including myself), is that God is eternal and thus had no beginning... hence required no cause for its own existence. It wouldn't even make sense for God to be an effect of another cause! I mean, God cannot be 'God' if it's a mere effect of something else. That's why God is consistently defined as the primal cause of everything.

I was under the impression that most atheists were aware of this, hence my judgement that it's a naive thread.

Except that it depends on your definition of 'God'.

Of course, but there can be no rational definition of God which reports it to being an effect of something else. Otherwise, anything and everything could be God as long as its existence effects further changes within its greater environment - as surely everything does.

God as it is commonly understood, refers to the Abrahamic god.

That depends upon which part of the world you live in - cultural influences. I'm addressing the issue from the perspective of reason, disassociated from any cultural bias. Regardless, I would still expect most Xians/Jews to believe that God is eternal and thus have no cause for its own existence. I'd also expect most atheists to be familiar with this and understand the synonymous connection between the concepts of eternal and acausal.
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Re: Who Made God?

#14  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Oct 07, 2016 10:54 pm

jamest wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
jamest wrote:This is a naive thread in my eyes, as the usual attitude of most theists to this question (including myself), is that God is eternal and thus had no beginning... hence required no cause for its own existence. It wouldn't even make sense for God to be an effect of another cause! I mean, God cannot be 'God' if it's a mere effect of something else. That's why God is consistently defined as the primal cause of everything.

I was under the impression that most atheists were aware of this, hence my judgement that it's a naive thread.

Except that it depends on your definition of 'God'.

Of course, but there can be no rational definition of God which reports it to being an effect of something else.

Can you rephrase this, as I cannot decipher what you're trying to say.

jamest wrote:Otherwise, anything and everything could be God as long as its existence effects further changes within its greater environment - as surely everything does.

Why would that be a problem?


jamest wrote:

God as it is commonly understood, refers to the Abrahamic god.

That depends upon which part of the world you live in - cultural influences. I'm addressing the issue from the perspective of reason, disassociated from any cultural bias. Regardless, I would still expect most Xians/Jews to believe that God is eternal and thus have no cause for its own existence. I'd also expect most atheists to be familiar with this and understand the synonymous connection between the concepts of eternal and acausal.

The problem is that you're presuming monotheism.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Who Made God?

#15  Postby igorfrankensteen » Oct 07, 2016 10:59 pm

As an atheist myself, I find that so far, Jamest is making the most purely logical sense about this.

All modern gods that I am aware of, are defined as supernatural in every way, including that the phrase "before god was here" is nonsense.

I particularly agree with the application of the word "naive" for this thread question. Do you REALLY think you are the first person to ask this question, and expect theists to fall apart in consternation? Goodness gracious, I've heard portions of at least a thousand sermons BY THEISTS, asking and answering this exact question for the exact reason that it was asked here.

I'm frankly surprised that so many other estimable thinkers here haven't recognized this as well.

The only people I have ever met who found the title question particularly interesting, were fledgling atheists, just making their very first steps away from knuckling under to some theist family member or another.

By the way, for the other real atheists here, I suggest another answer to the question to use, in case you are asked. That answer is,

Q: Who made God? A: EACH and EVERY person who conceives thereof. They "make" god in their own minds, because that is the only place that any god exists. Baal is no more, because no one "makes" Baal any more.
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Re: Who Made God?

#16  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Oct 07, 2016 11:01 pm

igorfrankensteen wrote:As an atheist myself, I find that so far, Jamest is making the most purely logical sense about this.

All modern gods that I am aware of, are defined as supernatural in every way, including that the phrase "before god was here" is nonsense.

I particularly agree with the application of the word "naive" for this thread question. Do you REALLY think you are the first person to ask this question, and expect theists to fall apart in consternation? Goodness gracious, I've heard portions of at least a thousand sermons BY THEISTS, asking and answering this exact question for the exact reason that it was asked here.

I'm frankly surprised that so many other estimable thinkers here haven't recognized this as well.

The only people I have ever met who found the title question particularly interesting, were fledgling atheists, just making their very first steps away from knuckling under to some theist family member or another.

By the way, for the other real atheists here, I suggest another answer to the question to use, in case you are asked. That answer is,

Q: Who made God? A: EACH and EVERY person who conceives thereof. They "make" god in their own minds, because that is the only place that any god exists. Baal is no more, because no one "makes" Baal any more.

Jamest is not the only ones objecting to the OP's question however.
More-over several of his arguments beg the question themselves.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Who Made God?

#17  Postby jamest » Oct 08, 2016 12:12 am

Blackadder wrote:
jamest wrote:This is a naive thread in my eyes, as the usual attitude of most theists to this question (including myself), is that God is eternal and thus had no beginning... hence required no cause for its own existence. It wouldn't even make sense for God to be an effect of another cause! I mean, God cannot be 'God' if it's a mere effect of something else. That's why God is consistently defined as the primal cause of everything.

I was under the impression that most atheists were aware of this, hence my judgement that it's a naive thread.


Either eternal existence is possible or it's not. If it is, then God is unnecessary. If it's not, then the question of who made God is relevant. Questioning the special pleading for God by theists may seem naive, but that's because the theists' position is itself naive. I await the barrage of sophistry to show that it is instead an exquisitely reasoned and profound position. :grin:

I've been dealing with the initial question of "Who made God?". The answer to that is clear: nobody/nothing, as God is eternal. /thread.

... Though I will not ignore your concerns. So let me deal with them too:

Blackadder wrote:Either eternal existence is possible or it's not.

Existence must be eternal, as the alternative is that existence was caused by absolutely nothing. Special emphasis on 'absolutely' utterly justified. No singularities; no zero-point energy; no fluctuations in a pre-existing quantum field; etc.. Just NOTHING.

If it's not, then the question of who made God is relevant

As above, existence must be eternal. If I'm wrong, then God was caused by either nothing or something else. If the latter, then it isn't God anyway. So, embracing all possibilities, either God wasn't caused to exist or was caused by nothing (which amounts to the same thing), or there is no God (because there is no rational option for God to be an effect).

The bottom-line is that nothing caused God.
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Re: Who Made God?

#18  Postby Animavore » Oct 08, 2016 1:44 am

jamest wrote:
Animavore wrote:What did the first cause cause without something already there? Can't have a domino effect without dominos.

I can't speak for other theists, but you know that I'm an idealist who thinks that all creation happens in God's consciousness as an experience, so God doesn't need anything else to create something. Though I agree with your base concern and why this would be a problem for other theists.


If all creation 'happens' in God's consciousness, then that consciousness needs reference points; like a person when they dream. Same, too, for experience. All experience is an experience of something else. Can't experience without things to experience.
So yes, God needs something else to create something - A reference point.
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Re: Who Made God?

#19  Postby Animavore » Oct 08, 2016 1:58 am

jamest wrote:
The bottom-line is that nothing caused God.

So something can come from nothing.
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Re: Who Made God?

#20  Postby jamest » Oct 08, 2016 2:07 am

Animavore wrote:
jamest wrote:
Animavore wrote:What did the first cause cause without something already there? Can't have a domino effect without dominos.

I can't speak for other theists, but you know that I'm an idealist who thinks that all creation happens in God's consciousness as an experience, so God doesn't need anything else to create something. Though I agree with your base concern and why this would be a problem for other theists.


If all creation 'happens' in God's consciousness, then that consciousness needs reference points; like a person when they dream. Same, too, for experience. All experience is an experience of something else. Can't experience without things to experience.
So yes, God needs something else to create something - A reference point.

No, all God needs [initially] to create an experience in its own mind is the intelligence to ponder the possibility of more than itself.

... The rest is history, even as it happens now,
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