laklak wrote:She'd be useful on a deserted island, I suppose. Plenty of long ham there.

carl wrote:
What does an old, aged atheist who rejects Eternal Life look FORWARD to?

carl wrote:
2) Losing all ties to loved ones, friendships, possessions, etc...

carl wrote:
3) Losing any remembrance or significance of their life.

carl wrote:
4) Losing absolutely EVERYTHING.

carl wrote:
Atheism offers these typical NON-answers:

carl wrote:
1) "I don't fear death." This does not answer the question but simply avoids it. The question is NOT about fear but HOPE for the future. "Fear" and "Hope" are vastly different.

carl wrote:
2) "I look back on a full life." This is only looking back and does not answer the question about a future Hope.

carl wrote:
3) "Even if the Bible gives hope, that doesn't mean its true." This does not answer the question but avoids it.

carl wrote:
4) "I just look forward to the next day". A day-by-day, hand-to-mouth existence - again, nothing to look FORWARD to.

carl wrote:
5) "I have hope for future generations." When you're dead, you have no hope for YOU and does not answer the question.

carl wrote:
6) "I will live on in my children". This is only a RELATIVE hope, and does not answer the question beyond when your children do, in fact, also die.

carl wrote:
7) "I don't have to look forward to meeting God." Since God is nonexistent according to atheism, this answer is nonsensical.

carl wrote:
8) "I don't have to worry about going to hell." Since hell is nonexistent according to atheism, this answer is nonsensical.

carl wrote:
Psalm 112: The wicked man will see and be vexed, he will gnash his teeth and waste away; the longings of the wicked will come to nothing.

carl wrote:
Ecclesiastes 3: He has also set eternity in the hearts of men... Note: All human beings are sentient and want to live on, both for themselves and their loved ones.

Agrippina wrote:I had a chat with my older sister about this yesterday. She said she "fears" death, so I asked exactly what is it she "fears" about being dead, she won't know that she's dead. When we reached the end of the conversation, she felt a lot better because we figured out that it's not the idea of being dead that bothers her, it's the manner of her death: pain, suffering, indignity. Fair enough, I think most of us would like a clean death, i.e. to just die in our sleep, or drop dead while boogeying the night away with a joint in one hand and a martini in the other. It's not going to happen, we can't know the manner of our death, so why obsess about it?

Agrippina wrote:I had a chat with my older sister about this yesterday. She said she "fears" death, so I asked exactly what is it she "fears" about being dead, she won't know that she's dead. When we reached the end of the conversation, she felt a lot better because we figured out that it's not the idea of being dead that bothers her, it's the manner of her death: pain, suffering, indignity. Fair enough, I think most of us would like a clean death, i.e. to just die in our sleep, or drop dead while boogeying the night away with a joint in one hand and a martini in the other. It's not going to happen, we can't know the manner of our death, so why obsess about it?

Darwinsbulldog wrote:

Agrippina wrote:I had a chat with my older sister about this yesterday. She said she "fears" death, so I asked exactly what is it she "fears" about being dead, she won't know that she's dead. When we reached the end of the conversation, she felt a lot better because we figured out that it's not the idea of being dead that bothers her, it's the manner of her death: pain, suffering, indignity. Fair enough, I think most of us would like a clean death, i.e. to just die in our sleep, or drop dead while boogeying the night away with a joint in one hand and a martini in the other. It's not going to happen, we can't know the manner of our death, so why obsess about it?

I know if I have a postmortem life, it will be as a memory in the minds of friends and loved ones. Other than that, I will be just meat, with not even the "cheat" of surviving offspring. I think your sis is lucky to have such a wise sister.

I wonder if funerals and other rituals help to maintain the fantasy of a real after-life? Is a funeral really closure, or does it reinforce the delusion of afterlife? many people tend to respect the dead, and care for the dead, more than the living. over at Talk rational i expressed the option that maybe too much was being spent on the dead of air disasters, rather than using the effort and money to make flying safer by reducing errors and risks. Surely that would lead to fewer deaths and fewer grieving families? Is that not better? Somehow, I did not make my point.

RealityRules wrote:

Agrippina wrote:I had a chat with my older sister about this yesterday. She said she "fears" death, so I asked exactly what is it she "fears" about being dead, she won't know that she's dead. When we reached the end of the conversation, she felt a lot better because we figured out that it's not the idea of being dead that bothers her, it's the manner of her death: pain, suffering, indignity. Fair enough, I think most of us would like a clean death, i.e. to just die in our sleep, or drop dead while boogeying the night away with a joint in one hand and a martini in the other. It's not going to happen, we can't know the manner of our death, so why obsess about it?

I used to read the Guardian UK's Comment-is-Free Belief section a few yrs ago (when it was quite active) and there was a regular poster there who used to work in geriatric & palliative care. He said those that feared death the most were the devout Christians - they were scared stiff of what their 'afterlife' might be; and increasingly so in their last days.

Agrippina wrote:

RealityRules wrote:

Agrippina wrote:I had a chat with my older sister about this yesterday. She said she "fears" death, so I asked exactly what is it she "fears" about being dead, she won't know that she's dead. When we reached the end of the conversation, she felt a lot better because we figured out that it's not the idea of being dead that bothers her, it's the manner of her death: pain, suffering, indignity. Fair enough, I think most of us would like a clean death, i.e. to just die in our sleep, or drop dead while boogeying the night away with a joint in one hand and a martini in the other. It's not going to happen, we can't know the manner of our death, so why obsess about it?

I used to read the Guardian UK's Comment-is-Free Belief section a few yrs ago (when it was quite active) and there was a regular poster there who used to work in geriatric & palliative care. He said those that feared death the most were the devout Christians - they were scared stiff of what their 'afterlife' might be; and increasingly so in their last days.

Yeah that always confuses me. Why don't the deeply devout just die? Why do their families spend fortunes on medical care to keep them alive? Surely if the afterlife is what you want, you should just skip this one and shuffle off to the "better" place.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

Agrippina wrote:

RealityRules wrote:

Agrippina wrote:I had a chat with my older sister about this yesterday. She said she "fears" death, so I asked exactly what is it she "fears" about being dead, she won't know that she's dead. When we reached the end of the conversation, she felt a lot better because we figured out that it's not the idea of being dead that bothers her, it's the manner of her death: pain, suffering, indignity. Fair enough, I think most of us would like a clean death, i.e. to just die in our sleep, or drop dead while boogeying the night away with a joint in one hand and a martini in the other. It's not going to happen, we can't know the manner of our death, so why obsess about it?

I used to read the Guardian UK's Comment-is-Free Belief section a few yrs ago (when it was quite active) and there was a regular poster there who used to work in geriatric & palliative care. He said those that feared death the most were the devout Christians - they were scared stiff of what their 'afterlife' might be; and increasingly so in their last days.

Yeah that always confuses me. Why don't the deeply devout just die? Why do their families spend fortunes on medical care to keep them alive? Surely if the afterlife is what you want, you should just skip this one and shuffle off to the "better" place.

This is especially odd with Presbytarians others who believe in predestination.
Why heal/fix any illness or wound? Isn't having those what God wants/plans for you?
Why help a cow out of a ditch and mend it's broken leg, but not fix your own injuries or illnesses?
Also why pray at all or live a devout life, if God has already decided whether you got heaven or hell.

Cody wrote:Theism holds that God gave us freewill. Right? Theists have to say this otherwise they will have to acknowledge that God is responsible for evil in the world as well as good.Freewill is the essential ingredient needed to make sense of Theism.
That having been said, there surely is no place for predestination in Theism. Freewill and predestination would be very strange bedfellows.

archibald wrote:The wiki page on Death Anxiety has a section on religiosity. Although it is not conclusive, the general view both on that page and the associated 'talk page' seems to be that religiosity is more often associated with reduced anxiety about death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_anxiety_(psychology)#Measuring_death_anxiety

Religious coping and use of intensive life-prolonging care near death in patients with advanced cancer.

Phelps AC, Maciejewski PK, Nilsson M, Balboni TA, Wright AA, Paulk ME, Trice E, Schrag D, Peteet JR, Block SD, Prigerson HG.
JAMA. 2009 Mar 18;301(11):1140-7. doi: 10.1001/jama.2009.341

CONTEXT:

Patients frequently rely on religious faith to cope with cancer, but little is known about the associations between religious coping and the use of intensive life-prolonging care at the end of life.

OBJECTIVE:

To determine the way religious coping relates to the use of intensive life-prolonging end-of-life care among patients with advanced cancer.

DESIGN, SETTING, AND PARTICIPANTS:

A US multisite, prospective, longitudinal cohort of 345 patients with advanced cancer, who were enrolled between January 1, 2003, and August 31, 2007. The Brief RCOPE assessed positive religious coping. Baseline interviews assessed psychosocial and religious/spiritual measures, advance care planning, and end-of-life treatment preferences. Patients were followed up until death, a median of 122 days after baseline assessment.

MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES:

Intensive life-prolonging care, defined as receipt of mechanical ventilation or resuscitation in the last week of life. Analyses were adjusted for demographic factors significantly associated with positive religious coping and any end-of-life outcome at P < .05 (ie, age and race/ethnicity). The main outcome was further adjusted for potential psychosocial confounders (eg, other coping styles, terminal illness acknowledgment, spiritual support, preference for heroics, and advance care planning).

RESULTS:

A high level of positive religious coping at baseline was significantly associated with receipt of mechanical ventilation compared with patients with a low level (11.3% vs 3.6%; adjusted odds ratio [AOR], 2.81 [95% confidence interval {CI}, 1.03-7.69]; P = .04) and intensive life-prolonging care during the last week of life (13.6% vs 4.2%; AOR, 2.90 [95% CI, 1.14-7.35]; P = .03) after adjusting for age and race. In the model that further adjusted for other coping styles, terminal illness acknowledgment, support of spiritual needs, preference for heroics, and advance care planning (do-not-resuscitate order, living will, and health care proxy/durable power of attorney), positive religious coping remained a significant predictor of receiving intensive life-prolonging care near death (AOR, 2.90 [95% CI, 1.07-7.89]; P = .04).

CONCLUSIONS:

Positive religious coping in patients with advanced cancer is associated with receipt of intensive life-prolonging medical care near death. Further research is needed to determine the mechanisms for this association.

Nebogipfel wrote:

carl wrote:

Nebogipfel wrote:

carl wrote:Have you ever hurt anyone else? Aren't you glad God didn't make an edict wiping out all who hurt others? I am. He is much more merciful IMHO than someone who wants hurtful people wiped out.

Tell that to the Amalekites. Who (supposedly) were wiped out by divine edict.

ok, but have you ever hurt anyone else?

Sure. On numerous occasions. Some of which still make me cringe when I think of them.

ADParker wrote:

carl wrote:

ADParker wrote:

carl wrote:
I am no more glad that God didn't wipe people out than I'm glad that a stampede of unicorns and griffins didn't trample my vegetable garden before I got to harvest it.

Interesting that you seem to think that God is so lacking in imagination or ability to only have the two options of either allowing suffering to go on or wipe people out.

ok, but have you ever hurt anyone else? just asking.

Of what possible relevance is that question?
But if you must know; yes I have hurt other people, not even remotely as many as God has though... if you believe the stories that is.

surreptitious57 wrote:

carl wrote:
whenever we look at the date we are using His Birthday as a reference point

Wednesday - named after the Norse god Wodin
Thursday - named after the Norse god Thor
Friday - named after the Norse goddess Frigg
Saturday - named after the Roman god Saturn

January - named after the Roman goddess Janus
March - named after the Roman god Mars
July - named after the Roman emperor Julius
August - named after the Roman emperor Augustine
October - named after the Roman emperor Octavius

Mercury - named after the Roman god of the same name
Venus - named after the Roman goddess of the same name
Mars - named after the Roman god of the same name
Jupiter - named after the Greek god of the same name
Saturn - named after the Roman god of the same name
Uranus - named after the Greek god of the same name
Neptune - named after the Roman god of the same name