Worship

What is it, really?

Christianity, Islam, Other Religions & Belief Systems.

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Re: Worship

#21  Postby Clive Durdle » Jun 17, 2017 2:50 pm

Durkheim:-)

I think it is more interesting to work out what is worshipped currently and to look at the related practices and beliefs - orthodoxy and orthopraxy.

The current god is moloch. He has loads of metal boxes on wheels dedicated to him, regular sacrifices, huge amounts of time and energy is spent caring for these religious icons, there are regular pilgrimages to holy sites like Monte Carlo, there are saints like Clarkson.
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Re: Worship

#22  Postby Clive Durdle » Jun 17, 2017 2:54 pm

Are people really saying they haven't had religious experiences polishing their metal box, "driving" it, watching the religious meetings? Smelling the sacred fumes, hearing the angelic choir at the beginning of a meeting before the lights change?
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Re: Worship

#23  Postby Clive Durdle » Jun 17, 2017 2:57 pm

Smidsys happen because drivers are in a state of altered consciousness communing, worshipping moloch, not noticing people around
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Re: Worship

#24  Postby alta » Sep 29, 2019 10:05 pm

:roll: It helps to get a handle on what worship actually is (regardless of what it is said to be or defined as). Worship as we think of it is applying preferential priority of attention offered, given, allowed (however, that is not true attention). — Worship as we think of it only exists within the world of time and time-based experience. It has no place in eternity, for there is no division there (which is actually "here"...beneath perception) in order to mark time. — The most common practice of worship is found in religion (surprise! lol). Unfortunately, the collection of worshipers who proclaim "love for God" as the focus of their worship, are not worshiping God, but are worshiping a variable collage of concepts in their minds as though these were God, and calling that God without realizing this is what they are doing. — So okay, crazy question idea...What is God? It helps to get a handle on this as well (regardless, etc.). While there is no monotheistic "man up there, horribly powerful and over all" God as widely believed, there is that which is in and through all, as that all (caveat: what we perceive around us is not that "all", but is instead mentally created objects and their relationships in perception). Big deal!!! What is that? What they heck does that mean? Well, it is reality which is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent. It is what we are, unconditionally and without exception (caveat: what we are is not necessarily what we think we are). That which is real is everywhere and is that "everywhere place" as one place...being omnipresently so as that which it is (that which we are). That which IS all, knows itself (fundamental awareness) and being total is therefore omniscient. That knowledge is not vast or complex, but is simple, for quantitative complexity does not exist in our reality. That which is both omnipresent and omniscient, in the wholeness of its limitless totality, is therefore also undivided and hence unassailable. Being the only all there is, whatever power it has is vested in what it is (rather than some separate function), and is the only power anywhere (which is everywhere)...or in other words, omnipotence. (caveat: power is not "power over others" because in the reality of eternity there are no literal "others"...therefore power is peace, being over none and having none over it, there being no boundaries with which to determine such relationship. — As people worship their conceptualizations they call God (in so many forms), they are worshiping nothing, because their mental abstractions do not literally exist. That is so even if they have mass visions, visitations, supernatural happenings, and other phenomena involved. It is not possible to literally worship nothing...it makes no sense. And that is why the alleged "worship" we see going on around us seems so senseless...because it is senseless and unfounded. The only thing (which is not a thing per se) one can worship is that which is real. If it isn't real, how would one worship it? Only in their belief-burdened mind. One can, and basically everyone does worship reality. The problem is that for the most part these people have no idea what reality is, what worship is, or what any of this means. Why? Because they've been conditioned by belief systems from the cradle up since time immemorial, and the interplay of the concepts involved in those beliefs exacerbate the natural level of conflict (i.e.-positive/negative like a battery). This occurs because they are ignoring reality and their (hidden) worship of it (or attention to it). They choose to look upon the world they've created (and blamed on some "separate God" concept), with all its excitement, positive and negative. That choice is their worship of this world and everything in it (including what they abhor)...except that this worship is not truly worship. Instead, it is pseudo-attention. They are perceiving this world and their experiences in it in time rather than seeing it in eternity (because it does not literally exist in eternity). True worship is simply true attention, which is integral to omniscience. It is not partial or preferential, and cannot be made to become that. True worship, and thus true whole attention that is not warped into thinking and concepts, is ongoing knowledge of one's infinite reality. That knowledge (omniscience) is literally one with true, whole attention...and thus true worship is precisely the same as that which is worshiped (given whole attention). It is simply being that omniscient one which you/we are. There is no separation between worship and worshiper, and that is oneness in eternity. Here in the world of created appearances and experiences, oneness is not seen because the physical and mental senses cannot see. In eternity, worship is simply one way to attempt to look at what "being" is and devise a linguistic way to talk about it. In this world, true worship is subducted beneath our belief systems and hidden away...and mentally replaced with pseudo-worship (pseudo-attention or perception). — Bottom line: That which we call worship is not real, regardless of how fervently people do the behavior called worshiping. Real worship is not a choice and is not actually something we do, but is the reality of being that infiniteness which we are.
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Re: Worship

#25  Postby Cito di Pense » Sep 30, 2019 4:05 am

alta wrote::roll: It helps to get a handle on what worship actually is ... — Bottom line: That which we call worship is not real, regardless of how fervently people do the behavior called worshiping. Real worship is not a choice and is not actually something we do, but is the reality of being that infiniteness which we are.


Too many words, too few paragraphs, Doug. Yes, it could be that the everything of all-ness is just a single word, but I can't find it in what you wrote. Reality, being, existence -- all the same to me. You don't need all three words. Eso sí que es.

S-O-C-K-S. Strangely appropriate, sometimes.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Worship

#26  Postby Spearthrower » Sep 30, 2019 4:29 am

alta wrote::roll: It helps to get a handle on what worship actually is (regardless of what it is said to be or defined as). Worship as we think of it is applying preferential priority of attention offered, given, allowed (however, that is not true attention). — Worship as we think of it only exists within the world of time and time-based experience. It has no place in eternity, for there is no division there (which is actually "here"...beneath perception) in order to mark time. — The most common practice of worship is found in religion (surprise! lol). Unfortunately, the collection of worshipers who proclaim "love for God" as the focus of their worship, are not worshiping God, but are worshiping a variable collage of concepts in their minds as though these were God, and calling that God without realizing this is what they are doing. — So okay, crazy question idea...What is God? It helps to get a handle on this as well (regardless, etc.). While there is no monotheistic "man up there, horribly powerful and over all" God as widely believed, there is that which is in and through all, as that all (caveat: what we perceive around us is not that "all", but is instead mentally created objects and their relationships in perception). Big deal!!! What is that? What they heck does that mean? Well, it is reality which is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent. It is what we are, unconditionally and without exception (caveat: what we are is not necessarily what we think we are). That which is real is everywhere and is that "everywhere place" as one place...being omnipresently so as that which it is (that which we are). That which IS all, knows itself (fundamental awareness) and being total is therefore omniscient. That knowledge is not vast or complex, but is simple, for quantitative complexity does not exist in our reality. That which is both omnipresent and omniscient, in the wholeness of its limitless totality, is therefore also undivided and hence unassailable. Being the only all there is, whatever power it has is vested in what it is (rather than some separate function), and is the only power anywhere (which is everywhere)...or in other words, omnipotence. (caveat: power is not "power over others" because in the reality of eternity there are no literal "others"...therefore power is peace, being over none and having none over it, there being no boundaries with which to determine such relationship. — As people worship their conceptualizations they call God (in so many forms), they are worshiping nothing, because their mental abstractions do not literally exist. That is so even if they have mass visions, visitations, supernatural happenings, and other phenomena involved. It is not possible to literally worship nothing...it makes no sense. And that is why the alleged "worship" we see going on around us seems so senseless...because it is senseless and unfounded. The only thing (which is not a thing per se) one can worship is that which is real. If it isn't real, how would one worship it? Only in their belief-burdened mind. One can, and basically everyone does worship reality. The problem is that for the most part these people have no idea what reality is, what worship is, or what any of this means. Why? Because they've been conditioned by belief systems from the cradle up since time immemorial, and the interplay of the concepts involved in those beliefs exacerbate the natural level of conflict (i.e.-positive/negative like a battery). This occurs because they are ignoring reality and their (hidden) worship of it (or attention to it). They choose to look upon the world they've created (and blamed on some "separate God" concept), with all its excitement, positive and negative. That choice is their worship of this world and everything in it (including what they abhor)...except that this worship is not truly worship. Instead, it is pseudo-attention. They are perceiving this world and their experiences in it in time rather than seeing it in eternity (because it does not literally exist in eternity). True worship is simply true attention, which is integral to omniscience. It is not partial or preferential, and cannot be made to become that. True worship, and thus true whole attention that is not warped into thinking and concepts, is ongoing knowledge of one's infinite reality. That knowledge (omniscience) is literally one with true, whole attention...and thus true worship is precisely the same as that which is worshiped (given whole attention). It is simply being that omniscient one which you/we are. There is no separation between worship and worshiper, and that is oneness in eternity. Here in the world of created appearances and experiences, oneness is not seen because the physical and mental senses cannot see. In eternity, worship is simply one way to attempt to look at what "being" is and devise a linguistic way to talk about it. In this world, true worship is subducted beneath our belief systems and hidden away...and mentally replaced with pseudo-worship (pseudo-attention or perception). — Bottom line: That which we call worship is not real, regardless of how fervently people do the behavior called worshiping. Real worship is not a choice and is not actually something we do, but is the reality of being that infiniteness which we are.




That all comes across as very rational, evidence-based, and acceptable, just as you seem like a completely new member who just happened past and decided to instruct a group of people he's never met on what a word means.
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Re: Worship

#27  Postby Hermit » Sep 30, 2019 6:25 am

Deepak Chopra bullshit generator, now with 'verbose' switch, for the win.
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Re: Worship

#28  Postby Blackadder » Sep 30, 2019 7:41 am

alta wrote::roll: It helps to get a handle on what worship actually is (regardless of what it is said to be or defined as). Worship as we think of it is applying preferential priority of attention offered, given, allowed (however, that is not true attention). — Worship as we think of it only exists within the world of time and time-based experience. It has no place in eternity, for there is no division there (which is actually "here"...beneath perception) in order to mark time. — The most common practice of worship is found in religion (surprise! lol). Unfortunately, the collection of worshipers who proclaim "love for God" as the focus of their worship, are not worshiping God, but are worshiping a variable collage of concepts in their minds as though these were God, and calling that God without realizing this is what they are doing. — So okay, crazy question idea...What is God? It helps to get a handle on this as well (regardless, etc.). While there is no monotheistic "man up there, horribly powerful and over all" God as widely believed, there is that which is in and through all, as that all (caveat: what we perceive around us is not that "all", but is instead mentally created objects and their relationships in perception). Big deal!!! What is that? What they heck does that mean? Well, it is reality which is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent. It is what we are, unconditionally and without exception (caveat: what we are is not necessarily what we think we are). That which is real is everywhere and is that "everywhere place" as one place...being omnipresently so as that which it is (that which we are). That which IS all, knows itself (fundamental awareness) and being total is therefore omniscient. That knowledge is not vast or complex, but is simple, for quantitative complexity does not exist in our reality. That which is both omnipresent and omniscient, in the wholeness of its limitless totality, is therefore also undivided and hence unassailable. Being the only all there is, whatever power it has is vested in what it is (rather than some separate function), and is the only power anywhere (which is everywhere)...or in other words, omnipotence. (caveat: power is not "power over others" because in the reality of eternity there are no literal "others"...therefore power is peace, being over none and having none over it, there being no boundaries with which to determine such relationship. — As people worship their conceptualizations they call God (in so many forms), they are worshiping nothing, because their mental abstractions do not literally exist. That is so even if they have mass visions, visitations, supernatural happenings, and other phenomena involved. It is not possible to literally worship nothing...it makes no sense. And that is why the alleged "worship" we see going on around us seems so senseless...because it is senseless and unfounded. The only thing (which is not a thing per se) one can worship is that which is real. If it isn't real, how would one worship it? Only in their belief-burdened mind. One can, and basically everyone does worship reality. The problem is that for the most part these people have no idea what reality is, what worship is, or what any of this means. Why? Because they've been conditioned by belief systems from the cradle up since time immemorial, and the interplay of the concepts involved in those beliefs exacerbate the natural level of conflict (i.e.-positive/negative like a battery). This occurs because they are ignoring reality and their (hidden) worship of it (or attention to it). They choose to look upon the world they've created (and blamed on some "separate God" concept), with all its excitement, positive and negative. That choice is their worship of this world and everything in it (including what they abhor)...except that this worship is not truly worship. Instead, it is pseudo-attention. They are perceiving this world and their experiences in it in time rather than seeing it in eternity (because it does not literally exist in eternity). True worship is simply true attention, which is integral to omniscience. It is not partial or preferential, and cannot be made to become that. True worship, and thus true whole attention that is not warped into thinking and concepts, is ongoing knowledge of one's infinite reality. That knowledge (omniscience) is literally one with true, whole attention...and thus true worship is precisely the same as that which is worshiped (given whole attention). It is simply being that omniscient one which you/we are. There is no separation between worship and worshiper, and that is oneness in eternity. Here in the world of created appearances and experiences, oneness is not seen because the physical and mental senses cannot see. In eternity, worship is simply one way to attempt to look at what "being" is and devise a linguistic way to talk about it. In this world, true worship is subducted beneath our belief systems and hidden away...and mentally replaced with pseudo-worship (pseudo-attention or perception). — Bottom line: That which we call worship is not real, regardless of how fervently people do the behavior called worshiping. Real worship is not a choice and is not actually something we do, but is the reality of being that infiniteness which we are.


A very wordy way of expressing that you like smell of your own farts.
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Re: Worship

#29  Postby Svartalf » Sep 30, 2019 10:28 am

quas wrote:
Calilasseia wrote:In short, it's arse-kissing elevated to an art form.


It's self-preservation.
If you don't do it, you are going to hell.

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Re: Worship

#30  Postby laklak » Sep 30, 2019 10:43 am

Blackadder wrote:

A very wordy way of expressing that you like smell of your own farts.


I love the smell of methane in the morning. Smells like...cheap energy.
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Re: Worship

#31  Postby laklak » Sep 30, 2019 7:24 pm

Here endeth the lesson.

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Re: Worship

#32  Postby SafeAsMilk » Sep 30, 2019 9:11 pm

Once I stopped believing, I came to think of proper worship as a sort of centering and humbling of oneself. Contemplate the cosmos, "God's work", and become aware how small and inconsequential you are. Taking the time to focus on this instead of the mundane day-to-day. All it takes is the pretense that one is special in the eyes of the creator to foul up the works.
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Re: Worship

#33  Postby Spearthrower » Sep 30, 2019 10:28 pm

When I stopped being Christian around the age of 12, I came to think of worship as being something I'd been told to do, never really quite grasped what they expected, but was basically made to feel that it's embarrassing to ask too many questions. Bear in mind I was a choir boy when I was 7-9 years old, walked by myself the couple of miles to church every Sunday week after week. Went for the singing, the rest seemed faintly farcical.

Fortunately in terms of clarification of what I felt must be the answer to those questions, I was also having Bible meetings with many different Christian sects to resolve other questions I had about scripture. The contradictory, confused, over-confident, worryingly earnest while obviously empty, and ritualistically self-deceiving responses I got back did, in fact, resolve all my questions as per my previous suspicion: it was all bullshit.

When you see people all over the world abasing themselves, performing strange rites, and appealing to the extraneous to solve problems internal to them, under mutually contradictory religious traditions, and you compare those behaviors with how we 'traditionally' (still do in many places) abased ourselves to secular power with their more immediate stick, it starts looking like another example of the human primate behavior of submission rather than communion with the divine.

Some may argue that their preferred god wants or demands submission, but I could never believe in a god that created everything, that knew everything at all times about everyone... could ever need, or even have the slightest interest in me submitting myself to It. I could well imagine what those secular intermediaries gained though, and why this kind of institution appears so universal, and it basically that regardless of where or when you were born, whatever political regime you lived under, of all the concerns you may ever have had, your local religion would have been high up there. There's money to be made, prestige to be earned, status to be enjoyed by exploiting fear; it's basically how we got kings and government. How perfectly exploitable is a fear of something that can't be detected without personal emotional commitment already subscribing to belief in the subject of that fear?

It's a great scam, and I suppose you could say that worship, from within this clerical parasitism paradigm, is not at all dissimilar from the thing that a cordyceps fungus does to an ant, less some fruiting bodies exploding out the back of your head.

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Re: Worship

#34  Postby Cito di Pense » Oct 01, 2019 5:53 am

Consider it from the perspective of someone whose parents did not insist their children participate in religious rituals. There's the damage: Children are not capable of dealing with such duplicity. This isn't necessarily the duplicity of belief in the religious symbols, either. It may only be parents who cannot resist the pressure of others asking them why their children are not in church. You could not get a reading from most church-going adults by the time they're really used to playing this game that they really worship anything.

There's the submission, if you're still looking for it, and I think it has very little to do with submission to the divine, until someone is old enough to make up stories justifying this strange social ritual. Breaking away from a religious upbringing is a different experience from simply fending off questions about why I'm not in a church by saying, "That's none of your damn' business." Some people will be unfriendly to you after that, but who wants them as fast friends? In my experience, most people are just not so rude as to insist on a (to them) substantive answer.

Spearthrower wrote:It's a great scam, and I suppose you could say that worship, from within this clerical parasitism paradigm, is not at all dissimilar from the thing that a cordyceps fungus does to an ant, less some fruiting bodies exploding out the back of your head.


This is dramatic. I'll bet there are people who faced religious indoctrination as children who just walked away and don't look back, much. What's frustrating is that the scam is financially successful (in some locations) and acquires access to resources we would choose to re-distribute in other ways, unconditionally. Without that money, they have little residual power. Funneling charity through large insititutions is not even something everyone agrees is a good idea.

Worship? Every public proclamation of devotion is a rationalization an adult comes up with for justifying these weird social connections. Consider how superfluous it otherwise appears.
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Re: Worship

#35  Postby Blackadder » Oct 01, 2019 7:07 am

I wonder (and this is pure uninformed speculation on my part) whether it isn’t misdirected evolved survival behaviour? A bit like seeing ghosts is a misdirected expression of our highly evolved ability to recognise predators from scant visual information.

Consider this: early humans lived in small groups, quite possibly headed up by an Alpha male. For the non-Alpha males, survival would depend on accepting and demonstrating their subjugation to the Alpha male, otherwise he would see them as rivals and kill them or drive them out.

As this mode of living became disused, perhaps the need for subjugation remained. And what better object before which to practice self abasement than the Alpha-est of Alpha males, an angry god who controls daylight, weather, disease and crops? You could see how the constant grovelling and begging for favours would satisfy an ancient and primitive instinct.
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Re: Worship

#36  Postby laklak » Oct 01, 2019 7:14 am

Religion is a money maker and that's a fact. We live just off "church row" here, there are multiple large churches with names like "Divine Healing Ministry"or "International Light Crusade" all along the road, with big pictures of the pastor and his demure and obedient wife on billboards. On Sunday the area is jam packed with rubes. Rich pickings. Swazis go in for Bible Thumping evangelicism crossed with Creflo Dollar style Prosperity Gospel, it's a perfect storm of irrationality. Take a population inculcated with muti and ghosts and vengeful witches from birth, a good carney huckster, add the odd cripple healing and coat the whole thing in a thick layer of Jebus and you've got yourself a tidy little money machine. Lot less work than a three card monte table and no jail time like a Ponzi scheme.

If I had a less scrupulous wife I'd get into the business myself. I'm sure I could talk one of the pastors into a special guest appearance by a Southern whiteboy evangelist, Praise Jesus. I'll rewatch the series Justified, the parts when Boyd Crowder gets into preaching and makes a bag of money. He did this little clogging dance while holding the Bible over his head that really got the collection going. Nothing sells redemption like a former sinner, and I've sinned more than most in my time.
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Re: Worship

#37  Postby Cito di Pense » Oct 01, 2019 8:24 am

Blackadder wrote:I wonder (and this is pure uninformed speculation on my part) whether it isn’t misdirected evolved survival behaviour? A bit like seeing ghosts is a misdirected expression of our highly evolved ability to recognise predators from scant visual information.

Consider this: early humans lived in small groups, quite possibly headed up by an Alpha male. For the non-Alpha males, survival would depend on accepting and demonstrating their subjugation to the Alpha male, otherwise he would see them as rivals and kill them or drive them out.

As this mode of living became disused, perhaps the need for subjugation remained. And what better object before which to practice self abasement than the Alpha-est of Alpha males, an angry god who controls daylight, weather, disease and crops? You could see how the constant grovelling and begging for favours would satisfy an ancient and primitive instinct.


Wouldn't it be lovely if there were a nice 'technical' analysis for how people got into this mess? Origin stories are unreliable now, and many details are lost to the guesswork of sociobiologists and evolutionary psychologists. There aren't any alpha males any more, except on very small and manageable scales. I mean, Dominic Cummings is no alpha male, and neither, for that matter, is BJ. Another easy rationalization is that human juveniles just take too fucking long to mature, sometimes an entire lifetime, and as such, treat others as authorities even when it is not appropriate, except insofar as they need help lacing their shoes or concluding trading arrangements.

Clive Durdle wrote:Durkheim:-)


:rofl:
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Re: Worship

#38  Postby Ironclad » Oct 01, 2019 8:59 am

If you could all send me just one dollar, little Jimmy will be cured of his gammy leg. Heil Jesus!
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Re: Worship

#39  Postby Cito di Pense » Oct 01, 2019 10:08 am

Ironclad wrote:If you could all send me just one dollar, little Jimmy will be cured of his gammy leg. Heil Jesus!


Crowdfunding is nothing new.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Worship

#40  Postby laklak » Oct 01, 2019 11:58 am

Kickstarter. We gonna KICK Satan out and START our new life in Jesus! Praise God!

Now dig deep y'all, show me how much you LOVE Jesus! We don't wanna hear no clickity clack coins, just that foldin' money.
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. - Mark Twain
The sky is falling! The sky is falling! - Chicken Little
I never go without my dinner. No one ever does, except vegetarians and people like that - Oscar Wilde
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