Worship

What is it, really?

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Worship

#1  Postby zulumoose » May 09, 2017 6:08 am

Whether or not anything that can be described as a deity exists, one thing that possibly all religions have in common is the idea of worship.

I simply can't understand worship, and don't know how to see it from the perspective of someone who would describe themselves as a worshipper.

If I were a believer, in whatever god, I would have a certain awe for the abilities I believed the god to have, and I would have a certain amount of respect and even admiration for the positive things I thought had been achieved, though I don't know how I would reconcile the failures and omissions, never mind the negatives.

I can't see how any intelligent person can weigh up a deity against the actual world and/or the contents of any religious text and believe this god to be all good, but that isn't even the difficulty I have with worship.

Worship seems to me to be utterly pointless. If you have nothing but admiration for a god, then that is it, end of story, where does that stop and worship begin? Why do "acts" of worship mean anything, and why would someone go to a religious meeting described as "worship" ? How does that achieve anything and why would a deity want or even approve of that? I would go to a service to learn something or be with like-minded individuals for discussion, but I see no other purpose.

Can anyone enlighten me to a perspective where worship makes sense to an intelligent individual and a deity who desires or demands worship isn't less admirable for being like that?
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Re: Worship

#2  Postby Cito di Pense » May 09, 2017 7:04 am

I appreciate your post, zulumoose. I think you and I both find the concept of deity as a target of reverence to be ridiculous. But we can have reverence for 'lesser' things, things that we can converse about coherently. Lots of people go overboard, even with reverence for secular stuff. Just look at any discussion that involves aesthetics. It's just an emotion, and it involves risk. The same people that have reverence for a deity also can express reverence in matters aesthetic. We can dispense with all emotion, but what's the fun in that? We can keep it fun by remembering that it is a game.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Worship

#3  Postby zulumoose » May 09, 2017 8:05 am

How is reverence different to admiration? I think it stops a long way short of what the religious describe as worship.

If you take the example of a convention, based around a shared interest like a hobby or even a Trekkie type convention, there is shared enthusiasm and admiration, even reverence for some aspects or people involved, it can look quite like a religious revival but it stops short of worship.

There is no singing of praises
There is no encouragement of trance-like states of submission
There is no such thing as a worship session
Even fanaticism and groupie behaviour are not really in the same category as formal worship though I can't think of how to describe the differences in behaviour clearly.
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Re: Worship

#4  Postby tuco » May 09, 2017 8:22 am

Worship is essentially kind of rectal alpinism, where expectation for practicing such behavior are benefits. There is more to it, probably meditation, reinforcing belief or socializing but the basic premise is compliance with a norm or pleasing an authority for expected benefits, which is rational or?
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Re: Worship

#5  Postby zulumoose » May 09, 2017 8:46 am

I think worship is more related to a kind of submission, a surrender of sorts.
I can see how it may be viewed in such a light as a moral activity because It should be a humbling experience, a suppression of ego, and a reinforcement of the willingness to "do god's will"

Maybe that's it, the justification for both participating in it and a gods reason for approving of it?

Have I just answered my own question? Kinda makes sense.
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Re: Worship

#6  Postby surreptitious57 » May 09, 2017 9:05 am

Why would a presumably omnibenevolent deity require unconditional worship? Now maybe the omniscient part of it would know but am damned if I do. If I was God no one would be worshipping me. That bullshit would be stamped out right away
You wanted someone to worship you would have to find someone else
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Re: Worship

#7  Postby tuco » May 09, 2017 9:55 am

Makes sense :) When something makes sense it means that .. it makes sense, which is comforting as it seems helpful, benefitial.

"Idea of worship" .. so who had this idea? You know.
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Re: Worship

#8  Postby Manticore » May 09, 2017 2:28 pm

Any entity that expects people to grovel to it is, in my opinion, morally inferior to me. Therefore it can go f*ck itself.
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Re: Worship

#9  Postby NineBerry » May 09, 2017 4:43 pm

Properties of the act of worshipping are obviously successful memes that help the memeplex religion they belong to to survive.

Several aspects can be part of that:

The act of doing the worship can be enjoyable for the participants. It gives them a sense of community, belonging, safety. We can see similar behaviour at music concerts or sports events.

Being part of worship can strengthen a person's commitment in a religion by several mechanisms: First he enjoyment as mentioned earlier is connected with belonging to the religion. Then the act of seeing other person worshipping can calm tendencies to leave because you see all other people seem to be comfortable with the religion. Then the act of being seen by other persons during worship can inhibit tendencies to leave because you don't want to be seen by these other persons as having faked.

Probably a lot more aspects to that...
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Re: Worship

#10  Postby archibald » May 09, 2017 9:04 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:We can keep it fun by remembering that it is a game.


"It seems rather obvious that plants have free will. Don't know why that would be controversial."
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Re: Worship

#11  Postby Dark energy » May 09, 2017 9:31 pm

Worship doesnt benefit allah/god since he doesnt need it. however, benefits the doer. Worship fullfill gods rights.it also provides protection from evil.


When we worship God we develop such traits as forgiveness,tenderness, justice, righteousness, purity, kindness, and love. All of this is preparing the worshipper for eternal life in heaven with God.

i personally think worship is a communication medium where i can access the wisdom of god or his blessings.worship is not just attending mosque/church ,it means remembering allah/god in every day activities like eating,sleeping ,going out of the house,getting in the car,before entering toilet or before sex with wife/husband.

Islam claims the purpose of creation was to worship allah.it also have spiritual healings since constantly remembering allah calms the heart.

Quran verse
(Verily, in the remembrance of Allah do hearts find rest/calmness.)

so remember me; i will remember you. and be grateful to me and do not deny me.
Quran 2152

all in all,i agree worship is counter-intuitive.
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Re: Worship

#12  Postby Matthew Shute » May 09, 2017 10:46 pm

So, to summarize:

Allah wrote:I've a right to be worshiped. I say so, and I'm Allah. Look, plebs, I created the world for the sole purpose of you worshiping me, so do it! I mean, come on, I don't really care one way or the other, it's not for my benefit. Come on. Just worship me eternally or burn forever. It's your choice, slave. This is all for your own good.


Nothing shady or suspect about that at all!
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Re: Worship

#13  Postby Calilasseia » May 09, 2017 11:53 pm

In short, it's arse-kissing elevated to an art form.
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Re: Worship

#14  Postby Macdoc » May 10, 2017 12:01 am

abdication of responsibility.
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Re: Worship

#15  Postby RealityRules » May 10, 2017 2:34 am

worseship
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Re: Worship

#16  Postby Agrippina » May 10, 2017 9:06 am

It would be interesting to see a theist explain what the benefits of "worship" are.

There are people I admire, not for who they are, but for what they have achieved, and for the good they do. There are animals I think are amazing, like dogs that will put up with all the terrible things owners do to them, and yet they're prepared to give up their lives for the abuser. If I was going to worship something, it would probably be dogs. I can't though because they can also be difficult when they chew up your shoes, and you have to go out in slippers to buy a pair you can wear outside the house.

I don't understand worship of any kind, not for gods, not for heroes, not for celebrities. I just don't get it.
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Re: Worship

#17  Postby Arcanyn » May 10, 2017 2:37 pm

It's narcissistic supply given to imaginary gods created by individuals who assumed that gods must be as narcissistic as they are.
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Re: Worship

#18  Postby archibald » May 10, 2017 11:12 pm

Calilasseia wrote:In short, it's arse-kissing elevated to an art form.


Or, to be fair, legs:

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Re: Worship

#19  Postby BlackBart » May 11, 2017 6:55 am

Dark energy wrote:Worship doesnt benefit allah/god since he doesnt need it. however, benefits the doer. Worship fullfill gods rights.it also provides protection from evil.


Why couldn't this God thing provide protection from 'evil' by default? And how exactly does munching carpet five times a day provide said protection from what this moron deity should have sorted out in the first place?


When we worship God we develop such traits as forgiveness,tenderness, justice, righteousness, purity, kindness, and love.


I think we'll apply Hitchen's razor to this... Bullshit.

All of this is preparing the worshipper for eternal life in heaven with God.


Why? Why does this God thing keep forgetting he's omnipotent and could prepare anyone for 'heaven' a trillion more effectively than carpet munching ever could, just by deciding to do it? He is omnipotent isn't he DE??


i personally think worship is a communication medium where i can access the wisdom of god or his blessings.worship is not just attending mosque/church ,it means remembering allah/god in every day activities like eating,sleeping ,going out of the house,getting in the car,before entering toilet or before sex with wife/husband.


So you can just go for a dump instead of bothering with a Mosque. Gotcha. May as well demolish them and put up a few more public toilet - they'd be more practical.


Islam claims the purpose of creation was to worship allah.it also have spiritual healings since constantly remembering allah calms the heart.


Which is why Mosque attendees blow up marketplaces in Iraq. Doesn't seem to work.


Quran verse
(Verily, in the remembrance of Allah do hearts find rest/calmness.)

so remember me; i will remember you. and be grateful to me and do not deny me.
Quran 2152


Preaching again.

all in all,i agree worship is counter-intuitive.


Bullshit usually is.
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Re: Worship

#20  Postby quas » Jun 14, 2017 5:50 am

Calilasseia wrote:In short, it's arse-kissing elevated to an art form.


It's self-preservation.
If you don't do it, you are going to hell.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem
those who think alike than those who think differently. -Nietzsche
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