Gaeilge - should we keep it?

Elements of Irish politics want to minimise compulsory teaching of it

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Re: Gaeilge - should we keep it?

#81  Postby Saim » Sep 24, 2012 11:35 am

Warren Dew wrote:
Languages serve mostly to divide people.

Prove it.

What language was the IRA speaking? What language was the your Confederacy speaking? What language did Yugoslavia speak? And so on and so on ad infinitum.

Are you even an internationalist? Nationality serves to divide people. Ethnicity serves to divide people. Let's get rid of it all! We should all be exactly the same, otherwise we're "divided".

What fucking rot. :yuk:

I think it's a bad idea to force people to study it if they don't want to.

I think dominant linguistic groups need to stop whining about being "forced" to learn another language. It's endemic in my own country of residence (Catalonia), where every day there is a Spanish-speaking parent complaining that their kid has to be educated through the medium of Catalan.

But guess what. The native language of this area is part of humanity's collective heritage, and the people here are very attached to it. Bilingualism is also good for the mind, in case you only value utility arguments.

Do you also complain about children being "forced" to learn mathematics, history, or even the dominant language? I somehow doubt it. The reason is because being "forced" as you put it to learn a minority language hacks away at the dominant group's prestige, which they can never really stomach. "We're all equal" is going to be an eternal fight, it seems.
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Re: Gaeilge - should we keep it?

#82  Postby Warren Dew » Sep 24, 2012 8:01 pm

Saim wrote:I think dominant linguistic groups need to stop whining about being "forced" to learn another language. It's endemic in my own country of residence (Catalonia), where every day there is a Spanish-speaking parent complaining that their kid has to be educated through the medium of Catalan.

But guess what. The native language of this area is part of humanity's collective heritage, and the people here are very attached to it. Bilingualism is also good for the mind, in case you only value utility arguments.

People can be bilingual by learning another major language, without having to learn tiny and dying languages.
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Re: Gaeilge - should we keep it?

#83  Postby tuco » Sep 24, 2012 8:11 pm

Keep it. Only if for those occasions one can badmouth innocent bystanders without them having a clue ;)

There are some with expertise in linguistic, possibly psychology/sociology, on this board would could elaborate in more sophisticated and informed manner, but language is, in my opinion, paramount to identity, thinking and inner life so to say.
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Re: Gaeilge - should we keep it?

#84  Postby archibald » Sep 24, 2012 8:13 pm

Sorry to interrupt the thread, but, I have a wrist watch. I was wondering, if any of you guys who want to have irish as a national language could help. You see, I'm trying to make the hands go backwards.
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Re: Gaeilge - should we keep it?

#85  Postby HughMcB » Sep 24, 2012 8:21 pm

Turn it upside down. :coffee:
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Re: Gaeilge - should we keep it?

#86  Postby Saim » Sep 26, 2012 7:41 am

archibald wrote:I was wondering, if any of you guys who want to have irish as a national language could help.

Don't have to turn back time or any nonsense like that. It's already a national language.
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Re: Gaeilge - should we keep it?

#87  Postby Saim » Sep 26, 2012 7:52 am

Warren Dew wrote:
Saim wrote:I think dominant linguistic groups need to stop whining about being "forced" to learn another language. It's endemic in my own country of residence (Catalonia), where every day there is a Spanish-speaking parent complaining that their kid has to be educated through the medium of Catalan.

But guess what. The native language of this area is part of humanity's collective heritage, and the people here are very attached to it. Bilingualism is also good for the mind, in case you only value utility arguments.

People can be bilingual by learning another major language, without having to learn tiny and dying languages.

How tiny and "dying" is tiny and dying? Does Catalan count? Welsh? Tatar? Or just Irish?

It's quite telling that you only responded to the utility argument. :roll: But in any case, in Ireland there is a much better infrastructure for Irish-language teaching, and also a far greater demand. Which would be easier - making most Irish bilingual in their own language or making them bilingual in say, Chinese or French? In fact, lots of speakers minority languages have found it easier to move on to other languages later... having learnt Irish will make it significantly easier to learn French or German or whatever language you don't think deserves to be pissed on and ridiculed for being "too small" (given 95% of the world's languages have less than a million speakers, I suppose it's a very small percentage of the world's languages that you think as worthy as your wonderful English).
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Re: Gaeilge - should we keep it?

#88  Postby Scot Dutchy » Sep 26, 2012 8:53 am

Saim wrote:
archibald wrote:I was wondering, if any of you guys who want to have irish as a national language could help.

Don't have to turn back time or any nonsense like that. It's already a national language.


Only used by 3% of the population on a daily basis.
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Re: Gaeilge - should we keep it?

#89  Postby Scot Dutchy » Sep 26, 2012 8:58 am

Saim wrote:
Warren Dew wrote:
Saim wrote:I think dominant linguistic groups need to stop whining about being "forced" to learn another language. It's endemic in my own country of residence (Catalonia), where every day there is a Spanish-speaking parent complaining that their kid has to be educated through the medium of Catalan.

But guess what. The native language of this area is part of humanity's collective heritage, and the people here are very attached to it. Bilingualism is also good for the mind, in case you only value utility arguments.

People can be bilingual by learning another major language, without having to learn tiny and dying languages.

How tiny and "dying" is tiny and dying? Does Catalan count? Welsh? Tatar? Or just Irish?

It's quite telling that you only responded to the utility argument. :roll: But in any case, in Ireland there is a much better infrastructure for Irish-language teaching, and also a far greater demand. Which would be easier - making most Irish bilingual in their own language or making them bilingual in say, Chinese or French? In fact, lots of speakers minority languages have found it easier to move on to other languages later... having learnt Irish will make it significantly easier to learn French or German or whatever language you don't think deserves to be pissed on and ridiculed for being "too small" (given 95% of the world's languages have less than a million speakers, I suppose it's a very small percentage of the world's languages that you think as worthy as your wonderful English).


There is no demand for learning Irish. They learn it in the schools but forget after their final exam. It has become a pure snobbish thing. The "Gael" schools were set up during the Irish Tiger when money was no problem now they are a burden on the education system.
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Re: Gaeilge - should we keep it?

#90  Postby archibald » Sep 26, 2012 9:08 am

Saim wrote:
archibald wrote:I was wondering, if any of you guys who want to have irish as a national language could help.

Don't have to turn back time or any nonsense like that. It's already a national language.


This must be using the word 'national' in some sense I'm not understanding.
Last edited by archibald on Sep 26, 2012 9:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Gaeilge - should we keep it?

#91  Postby Scot Dutchy » Sep 26, 2012 9:11 am

archibald wrote:
Saim wrote:
archibald wrote:I was wondering, if any of you guys who want to have irish as a national language could help.

Don't have to turn back time or any nonsense like that. It's already a national language.


This must be using the word 'national' in some sense I'm not understanding.


I agree. It nothing like a "national" language. It is a very small minority language.
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Re: Gaeilge - should we keep it?

#92  Postby archibald » Sep 26, 2012 9:28 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:

I agree. It nothing like a "national" language. It is a very small minority language.


Having said that, I did read somewhere that the Chinese are learning it in their droves, because they reckon it's gonna be, like, really useful.
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Re: Gaeilge - should we keep it?

#93  Postby zulumoose » Sep 26, 2012 9:57 am

A useful language is one which opens doors, ie has a unique utility in terms of society, business, travel etc.

There is little to be said for a language that is almost entirely used by people who already have a common language they use on a daily basis. What can be done with the additional language that wasn't already achieved?

What is the practical motivation for learning it, other than a quaint whimsical rush of nostalgia that seems a little false?
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Re: Gaeilge - should we keep it?

#94  Postby tuco » Sep 26, 2012 10:15 am

Are there any historical texts in Gaeilge?

To say that English will always remain first, or official, language in Ireland is a bold claim. Who knows what is going to happend in 50 or 5000 years? However, if Gaeilge will be abandoned, chances of its revival, in cultural and national context, will become much slimier.

Also, during history one of the first steps of aggressors/conquerors was to impose their own language as official one on local populace. Actually, that happened to the Irish or?

Either way, only Irish themselves have anything relevant to say on this issue as it is nones business really.
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Re: Gaeilge - should we keep it?

#95  Postby Scot Dutchy » Sep 26, 2012 10:21 am

zulumoose wrote:A useful language is one which opens doors, ie has a unique utility in terms of society, business, travel etc.

There is little to be said for a language that is almost entirely used by people who already have a common language they use on a daily basis. What can be done with the additional language that wasn't already achieved?

What is the practical motivation for learning it, other than a quaint whimsical rush of nostalgia that seems a little false?


Well Irish does only open doors of pubs on the west coast. It is easier to talk to the locals but thats about it.

You need Irish if you are watching Gaelic sport on the television (every Sunday).
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Re: Gaeilge - should we keep it?

#96  Postby Horwood Beer-Master » Sep 26, 2012 11:22 am

zulumoose wrote:A useful language is one which opens doors...


What language is "open sesame" :ask: :leaving:
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Re: Gaeilge - should we keep it?

#97  Postby Saim » Sep 27, 2012 11:42 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Saim wrote:
archibald wrote:I was wondering, if any of you guys who want to have irish as a national language could help.

Don't have to turn back time or any nonsense like that. It's already a national language.


Only used by 3% of the population on a daily basis.

A national language used by 3% of people on a daily basis, yes, what's your point?

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Saim wrote:
archibald wrote:I was wondering, if any of you guys who want to have irish as a national language could help.

Don't have to turn back time or any nonsense like that. It's already a national language.


Only used by 3% of the population on a daily basis.

A national language used by 3% of people on a daily basis, yes, what's your point?

archibald wrote:
Saim wrote:
archibald wrote:I was wondering, if any of you guys who want to have irish as a national language could help.

Don't have to turn back time or any nonsense like that. It's already a national language.


This must be using the word 'national' in some sense I'm not understanding.


Wikipedia wrote:Irish enjoys constitutional status as the national and first official language of the Republic of Ireland.
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Re: Gaeilge - should we keep it?

#98  Postby Saim » Sep 27, 2012 12:09 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:

There is no demand for learning Irish.

You're lying.

They learn it in the schools but forget after their final exam.

Stop talking shit, seriously. I've had to educated you about Irish education a million times in this thread already, I don't think I could take having to do it another million times.

They learn it in the schools but forget after their final exam.

Why are half your posts in this thread "blah blah blah fucking leaving cert". Let's just review for a second earlier posts in this thread:

There are plenty of second-language Irish speakers. "Irish is not spoken in any town", even including only native-speakers you're totally ignoring migrants from rural areas who've moved to towns or cities.


Every Irish kid is taught Irish and has to pass the subject on the leaving cert otherwise the cert is not valid. No wonder there are so many second language Irish speakers.

Have you read any of my posts in this thread? Have you not heard of Irish immersion schools?


Saim wrote:My wife has had 13 years of Irish but is no speaker. She can just read some of it. In all her professional career as district nurce and midwife she was never rquired to use Irish once.

IMMERSION SCHOOLS.


How many times am I going to have to counter your "leaving cert" bullshit with "immersion schools"? "There's no demand for learning Irish" - except Irish language schools are prestigious and have long waiting lists. Fail.

Scot Dutchy wrote:The "Gael" schools were set up during the Irish Tiger when money was no problem now they are a burden on the education system.

I don't understand why Gaelic schools are much more expensive than English ones? What teaching other people a language is a "burden"?
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Re: Gaeilge - should we keep it?

#99  Postby Scot Dutchy » Sep 27, 2012 12:21 pm

What in the hell are you shouting about.

Where are these "immersion" schools. Not in Limerick County wher my wife came from.

Your quotes are all screwed up btw. There is no town in Ireland where Irish is spoken a daily basis.

That leaving cert bit is true. My wife is IRISH so dont bull shit me.
She studied up to third level so I think she knows the system. In her day you had to pass the Irish exam or you final cert was not valid. That has been dropped now which is why second language Irish speakers is declining.

You're fucking lying. Stop talking shit, seriously. I've had to educated you about Irish education a million times in this thread already, I don't think I could take having to do it another million times.


WTF are you on about? YOU teaching me. Dont make laugh.
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Re: Gaeilge - should we keep it?

#100  Postby Saim » Sep 27, 2012 12:36 pm

zulumoose wrote:A useful language is one which opens doors, ie has a unique utility in terms of society, business, travel etc.

Have you learned Irish? How do you know it doesn't open doors?

There is little to be said for a language that is almost entirely used by people who already have a common language they use on a daily basis. What can be done with the additional language that wasn't already achieved?

Teaching more people Irish promotes multilingualism in Ireland, gives them better access to their literary and cultural heritage. It's certainly helped out the Gaeltacht regions in an economic sense. It also gives a bit of a break from all the Anglo-monotony. Certainly it's better to speak two languages than one, right?

zulumoose wrote:What is the practical motivation for learning it, other than a quaint whimsical rush of nostalgia that seems a little false?

There's a bit more to identity than that.
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