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Re: Drones

#21  Postby HomerJay » Jun 12, 2011 11:31 pm

willhud9 wrote:But, in fact, homerjay can you prove that civilians deaths are higher than enemy military casualties? The US, especially, bends over backwards to prevent civilian deaths, even to the point of letting known suspects go because they were hiding in a hospital.

Er, I didn't make the claim that civilian deaths were higher, I stated the numbers were a side show.

We do know the merkins were willing to accept that 25% of civilians deaths was a win.

We do know the merkins haven't been truthful about civilian deaths in the past.

We should know that if the merkins now claim they have sorted the problem but they aren't going to say how or why, that we can claim bullshit.

What is objectionable to Weaver's claim is that we should now trust the merkins on face value and accept our ignorance. It's an infantile approach that doesn't dignify it's perpetrators or us. Don't even bring it to the table.
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Re: Drones

#22  Postby willhud9 » Jun 13, 2011 1:52 am

HomerJay wrote:
willhud9 wrote:But, in fact, homerjay can you prove that civilians deaths are higher than enemy military casualties? The US, especially, bends over backwards to prevent civilian deaths, even to the point of letting known suspects go because they were hiding in a hospital.

Er, I didn't make the claim that civilian deaths were higher, I stated the numbers were a side show.

We do know the merkins were willing to accept that 25% of civilians deaths was a win.


Yeah, its called war. Try to butter it up all you'd like, people die. Sometimes innocents happen to get caught in the way. The US does its best to make sure that does not happen.

Of course, if you are to argue that wars should never be fought and militaries are too be disbanded, I will laugh at you :lol:

We do know the merkins haven't been truthful about civilian deaths in the past.


According to what source and why should military information such as that even be released to the public? Top officials, yes, but not the general public who sees the phrase "civilian casualty" and immediately flips a shit about the atrocities of war.

We should know that if the merkins now claim they have sorted the problem but they aren't going to say how or why, that we can claim bullshit.


Fine, claim bullshit, what are you going to do about it? Complain to the UN? The US pretty much controls it financially. Sanction us via trade? Fine. The US could use a lesson about becoming financially and economically independent.

What is objectionable to Weaver's claim is that we should now trust the merkins on face value and accept our ignorance. It's an infantile approach that doesn't dignify it's perpetrators or us. Don't even bring it to the table.


I think I value Weaver's judgement on this matter, more so than yours. Especially since Weaver is in a position to know the truth.
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Re: Drones

#23  Postby Salinger » Jun 13, 2011 2:12 am

willhud9 wrote:According to what source and why should military information such as that even be released to the public? Top officials, yes, but not the general public who sees the phrase "civilian casualty" and immediately flips a shit about the atrocities of war.


On the contrary, I think the general public should flip more of a shit about the atrocities of war. Maybe they would think twice about supporting American wars if they considered the magnitude of civilian casualties.
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Re: Drones

#24  Postby willhud9 » Jun 13, 2011 2:22 am

Salinger wrote:
willhud9 wrote:According to what source and why should military information such as that even be released to the public? Top officials, yes, but not the general public who sees the phrase "civilian casualty" and immediately flips a shit about the atrocities of war.


On the contrary, I think the general public should flip more of a shit about the atrocities of war. Maybe they would think twice about supporting American wars if they considered the magnitude of civilian casualties.


What "American" wars? Wars that several countries in Europe have also taken a part in? :ask:
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Re: Drones

#25  Postby Salinger » Jun 13, 2011 3:02 am

willhud9 wrote:
Salinger wrote:
willhud9 wrote:According to what source and why should military information such as that even be released to the public? Top officials, yes, but not the general public who sees the phrase "civilian casualty" and immediately flips a shit about the atrocities of war.


On the contrary, I think the general public should flip more of a shit about the atrocities of war. Maybe they would think twice about supporting American wars if they considered the magnitude of civilian casualties.


What "American" wars? Wars that several countries in Europe have also taken a part in? :ask:


OK, what's your point? :scratch:
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Re: Drones

#26  Postby willhud9 » Jun 13, 2011 3:04 am

Salinger wrote:
willhud9 wrote:
Salinger wrote:

On the contrary, I think the general public should flip more of a shit about the atrocities of war. Maybe they would think twice about supporting American wars if they considered the magnitude of civilian casualties.


What "American" wars? Wars that several countries in Europe have also taken a part in? :ask:


OK, what's your point? :scratch:


Nothing, just don't call it an "American" war(s) when its not just America funding or fighting it.
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Re: Drones

#27  Postby AlohaChris » Jun 13, 2011 3:16 am

Q: How do you turn a jihadi into a civillian casuality?

A: You remove the AK-47 from his body and scream "The Americans killed my brother!" when CNN shows up.
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Re: Drones

#28  Postby byofrcs » Jun 13, 2011 3:28 am

AFAIK these are not fully autonomous but a human makes a decision so this isn't anything new from a moral de-coupling point of view but the success of these should drive the enemy to use the same technology.

I can imagine that terrorists will look towards using these same kind of drones to attack the US but without any override simply because they don't have to care that much about the target. Pack a kilo of explosives into a hybrid solar powered UAV and launch it from Mexico, Canada or the Sea. A week or two later it lands somewhere that its tiny GPS-powered brain was told to go. As terrorism then soft targets are perfect - schools, refineries, stadiums, power- substations, shopping malls.
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Re: Drones

#29  Postby King Hazza » Jun 13, 2011 9:56 am

I'd say Drones are are a slightly more ethical version of sending in a manned jet bomber- for the simple fact when you decide to resort to bombing something, at least you're not putting a pilot in danger too.

Having said that in an age where our enemies try to hide among civilians, I can't really say any form of bombing is particularly ethical.
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Re: Drones

#30  Postby HomerJay » Jun 13, 2011 11:26 am

willhud9 wrote:
HomerJay wrote:
willhud9 wrote:But, in fact, homerjay can you prove that civilians deaths are higher than enemy military casualties? The US, especially, bends over backwards to prevent civilian deaths, even to the point of letting known suspects go because they were hiding in a hospital.

Er, I didn't make the claim that civilian deaths were higher, I stated the numbers were a side show.

We do know the merkins were willing to accept that 25% of civilians deaths was a win.


Of course, if you are to argue that wars should never be fought and militaries are too be disbanded, I will laugh at you :lol:

According to what source and why should military information such as that even be released to the public? Top officials, yes, but not the general public who sees the phrase "civilian casualty" and immediately flips a shit about the atrocities of war.

I think I value Weaver's judgement on this matter, more so than yours. Especially since Weaver is in a position to know the truth.

You seem to be having a big problem with this and most of this is so infantile perhaps Weaver's tactic of reducing you to a child like trust has worked.

Why you're ranting about wars that should never be fought, we can only wonder about.

You think your Daddy has speshul knowledge because he was once in the Army :rofl: so it's no wonder you accept that you'll take Weaver's arguments without applying any rational process.

The question here is about how war is conducted, accepting that the military can act without oversight and on their own grounds is fruit loop stuff.

This is serious bullshit and needs to be challenged very robustly indeed. It's not whether it is right or wrong, Weaver wants to take away the ability of people to challenge the facts, that's why it makes children of us (well, those that accept it, anyway!).
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Re: Drones

#31  Postby byofrcs » Jun 13, 2011 12:08 pm

In time we will view the militaries like we do the death penalty: an obsolete mechanism for humanity to manage conflicts over resources.
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Re: Drones

#32  Postby willhud9 » Jun 13, 2011 6:17 pm

byofrcs wrote:In time we will view the militaries like we do the death penalty: an obsolete mechanism for humanity to manage conflicts over resources.


But so long as there are militant groups out there working for religious/political reasons against other countries, militaries are necessary evil to have for defense of one's liberties and wars will happen.
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Re: Drones

#33  Postby willhud9 » Jun 13, 2011 6:26 pm

HomerJay wrote:
The question here is about how war is conducted, accepting that the military can act without oversight and on their own grounds is fruit loop stuff.

This is serious bullshit and needs to be challenged very robustly indeed. It's not whether it is right or wrong, Weaver wants to take away the ability of people to challenge the facts, that's why it makes children of us (well, those that accept it, anyway!).


No, no it doesn't.

Military drones are highly effective in minimizing civilian casualties thanks to the fact they can be programmed from afar with precision and accuracy of picking a target. The fact that there is some collateral damage from them is irrelevant to the fact that on the whole they have been effective. All that means is that research into creating more accurate drones to prevent civilian casualties is needed. Instead of whining about the military being "unethical" in its approach to the drone raids, why not whine about the inefficiency of the technology and push to create better ones? Oh that's right, defense spending needs to be cut the most out of any government spending.
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Re: Drones

#34  Postby Father O Rielly » Jun 13, 2011 7:36 pm

willhud9 wrote:
HomerJay wrote:
The question here is about how war is conducted, accepting that the military can act without oversight and on their own grounds is fruit loop stuff.

This is serious bullshit and needs to be challenged very robustly indeed. It's not whether it is right or wrong, Weaver wants to take away the ability of people to challenge the facts, that's why it makes children of us (well, those that accept it, anyway!).


No, no it doesn't.

Military drones are highly effective in minimizing civilian casualties thanks to the fact they can be programmed from afar with precision and accuracy of picking a target. The fact that there is some collateral damage from them is irrelevant to the fact that on the whole they have been effective. All that means is that research into creating more accurate drones to prevent civilian casualties is needed. Instead of whining about the military being "unethical" in its approach to the drone raids, why not whine about the inefficiency of the technology and push to create better ones? Oh that's right, defense spending needs to be cut the most out of any government spending.


To get a better understanding of the issue, try reversing the situation with a thought experiment. Muslim forces have been targeting militants in the US that the American government either can't or won't deal with. You don't really agree with the values of the militants, but like many others, you are incensed at the violation of American sovereignty, and the death of bystanders. One day, you find your home blown up and parents dead, the result of a missile gone astray. Is this still irrelevant in your mind, or is there a deeper issue here?
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Re: Drones

#35  Postby HomerJay » Jun 13, 2011 7:38 pm

willhud9 wrote:The fact that there is some collateral damage from them is irrelevant to the fact that on the whole they have been effective.

If you have no interest in the moral debate about killing civilians, that's fair enough.

But those of us that are interested may not find it irrelevant.
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Re: Drones

#36  Postby mraltair » Jun 13, 2011 9:23 pm

I just think UAVs are a useful step forward in conflict. We can now take out legitimate targets in areas or situations that would be too risky or impossible to send in men. They also prevent situations where a group of soldiers are spotted on their way, giving the targets enough warning to flee and fight another day.

Sending in a group of men may reduce the number of civilian deaths and casualties compared to a missile but the amount of targets that get away will be higher and our own troops will be put at more risk, which is an aim of war to reduce. I am all for them.
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Re: Drones

#37  Postby byofrcs » Jun 14, 2011 2:46 am

willhud9 wrote:
byofrcs wrote:In time we will view the militaries like we do the death penalty: an obsolete mechanism for humanity to manage conflicts over resources.


But so long as there are militant groups out there working for religious/political reasons against other countries, militaries are necessary evil to have for defense of one's liberties and wars will happen.


Ah yes the magic word "defense". I'm all for defense - it's "offense" that I have a problem with. The attitude of modern militaries is not defense of one's liberties because that is the first thing that they eliminate when they have failed. The freedom of press, the right to vote, freedom of speech and expression, freedom of movement are generally the first liberties they forbid.

Wars do not need to happen but they will whilst people still think that they can happen.
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Re: Drones

#38  Postby Weaver » Jun 14, 2011 9:25 am

HomerJay wrote:
The question here is about how war is conducted, accepting that the military can act without oversight and on their own grounds is fruit loop stuff.

This is serious bullshit and needs to be challenged very robustly indeed. It's not whether it is right or wrong, Weaver wants to take away the ability of people to challenge the facts, that's why it makes children of us (well, those that accept it, anyway!).

I have never said or implied that the military should act without civilian oversight - in fact, one of my points above is that civilian oversight finds our current levels of collateral damage to not be excessive, and approves of the measures we take to avoid it.

Nor have I said that people shouldn't be able to challenge facts - but I have said that opinion which is NOT based on facts is pretty much worthless. Speculation that civilian casualties exceed legitimate target casualties is one example of this - it's uninformed (due to lack of released "body count" to make a comparison), and it's simply absurd (open source information and reporting in major media would make it quite easy to estimate the number of strikes performed annually, and compare the number of strikes in which reports of civilian casualties occurred. This wouldn't be a very accurate ratio of civilian:insurgent deaths, but it would be in the ballpark - and even uncritical reporting of insurgent CLAIMS of civilian casualties generates a ratio well below 0.10.)
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Re: Drones

#39  Postby The_Metatron » Jun 14, 2011 11:07 am


!
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HomerJay, in this post of yours, you misrepresented another member, whose posts in the topic state or infer nothing of the sort:

HomerJay wrote:...perhaps Weaver's tactic of reducing you to a child like trust has worked.

HomerJay wrote:..Weaver wants to take away the ability of people to challenge the facts...

You agreed not to do this when you accepted our Forum User's Agreement. Misrepresentation is discussed in section 1.2.m.

Accordingly, I am awarding your first warning, for misrepresentation.

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Re: Drones

#40  Postby HomerJay » Jun 14, 2011 12:03 pm

[quote="The_Metatron";p="888521"][/quote]
You have got to be fucking joking.
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