Electric car

is it in my future? Yours?

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Re: Electric car

#121  Postby tuco » Jul 01, 2016 9:33 pm

Possibly because there are sensors with capabilities superior to humans, sensors to be able to detect all kind of waves. Detection, analysis, reaction time is superior already. Now AI.
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Re: Electric car

#122  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jul 02, 2016 8:14 am

The_Metatron wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:Still madness if it depends on visual recognition.

Why?

You depend on visual recognition.


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Well if it has a brain equivalent to ours ok but how often do we make mistakes? These systems should be fail safe not just better.
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Re: Electric car

#123  Postby tuco » Jul 02, 2016 9:41 am

I was told self-driving will not be (anytime soon) fail safe but only safer.
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Re: Electric car

#124  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jul 02, 2016 10:58 am

tuco wrote:I was told self-driving will not be (anytime soon) fail safe but only safer.


I would never use any system that is not fail safe.
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Re: Electric car

#125  Postby tuco » Jul 02, 2016 11:01 am

So if you had options, system A reasonably safe ~ 89.23% and system B quite safe ~ 97.85%, where system A is human driver and system B is robot, you pick human?
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Re: Electric car

#126  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jul 02, 2016 11:04 am

tuco wrote:So if you had options, system A reasonably safe ~ 89.23% and system B quite safe ~ 97.85%, where system A is human driver and system B is robot, you pick human?


I would. No robot as yet has a human brain.
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Re: Electric car

#127  Postby tuco » Jul 02, 2016 11:04 am

Well, in that case we wont be sharing cab in future ;)
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Re: Electric car

#128  Postby ScholasticSpastic » Jul 03, 2016 2:59 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:No robot as yet has a human brain.

This is actually why I'm so enthusiastic about autonomous vehicles. Human brains are easily distracted, prone to daydreaming, and often chemically imbalanced. Not suitable for piloting a ton of metal screaming down the road at 100km/h.
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Re: Electric car

#129  Postby tuco » Jul 03, 2016 11:19 am

Indeed, I am almost temped to say .. its not evolved for dealing with situations in high speeds.
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Re: Electric car

#130  Postby The_Metatron » Jul 03, 2016 2:12 pm

My new Subaru has stereo forward facing cameras. They operate speed control and can enforce lane discipline.

When the speed control is active, it ensures that a distance I specify from the car in front of me in maintained. The lane discipline function either warns me or warns me and gives steering input, depending on the mode set, when I leave my lane without signaling it.

But importantly, the system also indicates when it does or does not have positive control of those things. I know if it sees the car in front for example.

Like this one we saw on our drive east from Oregon: Image


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Re: Electric car

#131  Postby jamest » Jul 03, 2016 8:42 pm

ScholasticSpastic wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:No robot as yet has a human brain.

This is actually why I'm so enthusiastic about autonomous vehicles. Human brains are easily distracted, prone to daydreaming, and often chemically imbalanced. Not suitable for piloting a ton of metal screaming down the road at 100km/h.
Catch 22, since it's human brains which create robots and computers.
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Re: Electric car

#132  Postby Macdoc » Jul 03, 2016 8:49 pm

Jamest - are you really still of the sad opinion that human constructed intelligences suffer from the limitations of their creators???

It is no catch 22......silicon is simply faster than nerve impulses. Our cherished icons like chess and Go champions are falling regularly.
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Re: Electric car

#133  Postby tuco » Jul 03, 2016 9:01 pm

Lets not forget we are talking about specialised task - driving. Its not like AI will drive and have philosophical discussions with passenger(s).



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edit: Driving is actually not all that complex. Its like walking, we do (semi) automatically, but at higher speeds and by steering and pressing pedals. Computation of proper speed/action is also done (semi) automatically. As it was noted, attention is crucial: sensory input allowing for analysis.
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Re: Electric car

#134  Postby jamest » Jul 03, 2016 9:51 pm

Macdoc wrote:Jamest - are you really still of the sad opinion that human constructed intelligences suffer from the limiations of their creators???

It is no catch 22......silicon is simply faster than nerve impulses. Our cherished icons like chess and Go champions are falling regularly.
Computers extend human capabilities far far beyond what the wetware can handle and integrate into our very plastic brains in a delightful manner. They become now extensions, companions, enhancements and soon enough citizens. :coffee:

The last sentence is nonsense, though I agree with the rest. The problem is that computers are prone to crashing and breakdown. Another problem might be their lack of experience, for example dealing with overtaking bikes and tractors on country roads. I can think of lots of little problems like that. However the real problem is that humans create such machinery for humans to use. In that sense their capabilities are limited to our imaginations and conflicting desires. If I wasn't typing this on my phone I'd have gone into more detail.
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Re: Electric car

#135  Postby The_Metatron » Jul 03, 2016 10:08 pm

jamest wrote:
Macdoc wrote:Jamest - are you really still of the sad opinion that human constructed intelligences suffer from the limiations of their creators???

It is no catch 22......silicon is simply faster than nerve impulses. Our cherished icons like chess and Go champions are falling regularly.
Computers extend human capabilities far far beyond what the wetware can handle and integrate into our very plastic brains in a delightful manner. They become now extensions, companions, enhancements and soon enough citizens. :coffee:

The last sentence is nonsense, though I agree with the rest. The problem is that computers are prone to crashing and breakdown. Another problem might be their lack of experience, for example dealing with overtaking bikes and tractors on country roads. I can think of lots of little problems like that. However the real problem is that humans create such machinery for humans to use. In that sense their capabilities are limited to our imaginations and conflicting desires. If I wasn't typing this on my phone I'd have gone into more detail.

Because you can't imagine it doesn't make it nonsense.
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Re: Electric car

#136  Postby jamest » Jul 03, 2016 10:24 pm

The_Metatron wrote:
jamest wrote:
Macdoc wrote:Jamest - are you really still of the sad opinion that human constructed intelligences suffer from the limiations of their creators???

It is no catch 22......silicon is simply faster than nerve impulses. Our cherished icons like chess and Go champions are falling regularly.
Computers extend human capabilities far far beyond what the wetware can handle and integrate into our very plastic brains in a delightful manner. They become now extensions, companions, enhancements and soon enough citizens. :coffee:

The last sentence is nonsense, though I agree with the rest. The problem is that computers are prone to crashing and breakdown. Another problem might be their lack of experience, for example dealing with overtaking bikes and tractors on country roads. I can think of lots of little problems like that. However the real problem is that humans create such machinery for humans to use. In that sense their capabilities are limited to our imaginations and conflicting desires. If I wasn't typing this on my phone I'd have gone into more detail.

Because you can't imagine it doesn't make it nonsense.

I didn't say that. I said that what a computer can and will do is limited to our imaginations, since those imaginations form the basis of the software that goes into them.

Edit: I now realise that you were talking about my first sentence. The reasons I don't think robots will ever be like humans are not just because of my idealism. The main problem being that if they ever do become like humans then we need programmes to mimic their diversity, irrationality, folly, stupidity, indeterminism, artistry, emotional drive, laziness (all to varying degrees, of course), etc. etc.. Only then will they be like us and be worthy of 'citizenship'. Having said that, if computers become like that then we won't need them as there's 7 billion of us right now and all we need to do to increase those numbers is procreate more.
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Re: Electric car

#137  Postby felltoearth » Jul 04, 2016 4:06 am

ScholasticSpastic wrote:It will make me very happy if Elon Musk sees more competition in the marketplace.


Something telss me it will make Elon happy too.
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Re: Electric car

#138  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jul 05, 2016 12:49 am

jamest wrote:
Macdoc wrote:Jamest - are you really still of the sad opinion that human constructed intelligences suffer from the limiations of their creators???

It is no catch 22......silicon is simply faster than nerve impulses. Our cherished icons like chess and Go champions are falling regularly.
Computers extend human capabilities far far beyond what the wetware can handle and integrate into our very plastic brains in a delightful manner. They become now extensions, companions, enhancements and soon enough citizens. :coffee:

The last sentence is nonsense, though I agree with the rest. The problem is that computers are prone to crashing and breakdown.

So do people. So what? They operate more consistently than we do.

Another problem might be their lack of experience, for example dealing with overtaking bikes and tractors on country roads. I can think of lots of little problems like that.

Can you maybe try thinking of one that hasn't been considered already? Or are you of the mind that if you think of some little problem, it must mean that nobody else has considered it?

However the real problem is that humans create such machinery for humans to use. In that sense their capabilities are limited to our imaginations and conflicting desires. If I wasn't typing this on my phone I'd have gone into more detail.

People aren't made to drive cars efficiently. You can make machines to compensate for these shortcomings. You're making a non-point.
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Re: Electric car

#139  Postby ScholasticSpastic » Jul 05, 2016 6:57 pm

SafeAsMilk wrote:
People aren't made to drive cars efficiently. You can make machines to compensate for these shortcomings. You're making a non-point.

:this:

It's really quite silly to project our fallibility onto our products. We make specialized tools that accomplish projects more consistently and reliably than humans can all the time. This point could only stand if you were willing to discount the usefulness of pretty much every iconic form of automation that defines the current technological era.
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Re: Electric car

#140  Postby ScholasticSpastic » Jul 05, 2016 7:01 pm

jamest wrote:The main problem being that if they ever do become like humans then we need programmes to mimic their diversity, irrationality, folly, stupidity, indeterminism, artistry, emotional drive, laziness (all to varying degrees, of course), etc. etc.. Only then will they be like us and be worthy of 'citizenship'. Having said that, if computers become like that then we won't need them as there's 7 billion of us right now and all we need to do to increase those numbers is procreate more.

:lol: No, I don't think we need to make more fallible computers in order for them to be good enough for citizenship. There's no rule that says an entity must have a human capacity for folly in order to be as good as a human. And there's no rule that says we cannot eventually build something that's better than ourselves- though we would require their assistance to build them well before we got there.

We're wandering pretty far afield of electric cars. Should we start a new thread? Is there already an AI thread we can resurrect?
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