Electric car

is it in my future? Yours?

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Re: Electric car

#161  Postby Animavore » Jul 31, 2017 10:23 am

tuco wrote:Driving Tesla’s Model 3 Changes Everything

The Model 3 still has plenty of pickup, effortlessly jumping from zero to 60 mph in 5.1 seconds in the upgraded version I test drove, which gets a stunning 310 miles on a charge. It’s nimble, comfortable, and has tight steering that’ll keep you grinning. The seats embrace you in a gentle hug that feels a bit more geared for road trip than racetrack. It’s the Model S on a diet, making up in practicality what it loses in extravagance.

And I haven’t even gotten to the good stuff yet.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... everything



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A most evolved electron.
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Re: Electric car

#162  Postby tuco » Jul 31, 2017 5:28 pm

I wonder if the badass tablet is portable :) But yeah electric cars are getting damn real.
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Re: Electric car

#163  Postby zulumoose » Aug 01, 2017 6:22 am

I know the range extension would be negligible, but since most people will have an electric car sitting in daylight for a huge number of hours every week, and is has inbuilt batteries and charging regulators, wouldn't it just make sense to have PV cells built into the bodywork? They would add almost no weight if done properly, and would reduce the burden on the grid. Of course they would have to be done both tastefully and with the ability to recycle.

If you live just a few km from work and park outside there all day, it could even be a significant percentage. And those who live close to work would likely be the first adopters of electric vehicles.
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Re: Electric car

#164  Postby Macdoc » Aug 01, 2017 6:39 am

It would not. Solar roof parking makes sense as addition to the general renewable grid. The cost of electricity for EVs is negligble.
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Re: Electric car

#165  Postby zulumoose » Aug 01, 2017 7:32 am

Macdoc wrote:It would not. Solar roof parking makes sense as addition to the general renewable grid. The cost of electricity for EVs is negligble.


Solar roof adds to the grid, during the middle of the day, which does not help reducing peak usage (morning and evening). That is the real problem since generation is geared to cope with peaks, and can't step up and down that much according to available sunlight.

Only if the solar goes to battery does it help where it is really needed, reducing the peaks. If the average EV owner is 10% less likely to plug their car in to recharge at a peak time in the evening because they had a daytime trickle charge, then the savings to the grid generation are way more significant than if that charge hit the grid at midday, when it has no impact.
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Re: Electric car

#166  Postby GrahamH » Aug 01, 2017 9:56 am

zulumoose wrote:
Macdoc wrote:It would not. Solar roof parking makes sense as addition to the general renewable grid. The cost of electricity for EVs is negligble.


Solar roof adds to the grid, during the middle of the day, which does not help reducing peak usage (morning and evening). That is the real problem since generation is geared to cope with peaks, and can't step up and down that much according to available sunlight.

Only if the solar goes to battery does it help where it is really needed, reducing the peaks. If the average EV owner is 10% less likely to plug their car in to recharge at a peak time in the evening because they had a daytime trickle charge, then the savings to the grid generation are way more significant than if that charge hit the grid at midday, when it has no impact.


That seems like a good point. The grid needs energy storage and EV batteries are storage.
I wonder if home / work charge points could be made to feed small amounts of energy back to the grid to cover short peaks in demand. Eventually EVs could represent a pretty sizable storage capacity.

Obviously you need enough charge left in the vehicle in the morning for the day ahead but it might make sense to borrow some charge in the evening peak and put it back during minimum demand which I assume is in the early hours.

Owners could be paid for making this available and could book their vehicle out anytime they expect to need a full charge the next day. Maybe people in such a scheme would get batteries for life for free.
Why do you think that?
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Re: Electric car

#168  Postby zulumoose » Aug 01, 2017 10:46 am

I think eventually all power generation and consumption will be on a smart system, where the homeowner docks his car into the home supply, and everything is managed. Any solar/wind/battery/grid energy available will be distributed to and from the grid in order to minimise expensive peaks and provide power to the owner from surplus online generation, according to his needs. The owner would be able to program priorities into the system on a sliding scale, from a premium price to keep his storage topped up at all times, to a heavily discounted price if he makes a large percentage of his capacity available 24/7.

I think the typical homeowner's choice might be something like home storage for 3 days needs, vehicle capacity to be sustained at 50% and topped up beyond that only when cheap surplus available, 80% of combined capacity to be made available for emergency grid peaks, 60% available for supply shortages, override function available to stop any use by the grid, with a cost penalty if used.
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Re: Electric car

#169  Postby GrahamH » Aug 01, 2017 10:54 am

tuco wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid


Thanks!
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Re: Electric car

#170  Postby tuco » Aug 01, 2017 11:14 am

I've heard what you described just a couple of days ago and am very excited over opportunities in this field. A decade ago you'd probably be called nuts ;)
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Re: Electric car

#171  Postby Owdhat » Aug 08, 2017 5:01 pm

Batteries like to be kept fully charged, so not sure how is going to work yet
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Re: Electric car

#172  Postby Macdoc » Aug 08, 2017 10:07 pm

actually that's not entirely true....

A number of benefits appear when an electric vehicle battery is sized for long range. A larger-capacity battery results in a lower average depth of discharge and consequently longer cycle life and lower peak charge/discharge rate. If maximum charge is limited to 80% under everyday driving conditions, maximum voltage is avoided. If the battery pack is also thermally controlled, both maximum voltage and high temperatures are avoided. In this way, controlled conditions can increase battery life substantially.


https://cleantechnica.com/2016/05/31/ba ... ries-last/
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Re: Electric car

#173  Postby tuco » Aug 09, 2017 3:58 am

The keyword is "yet" imo. Conceptually its a wonderful idea since storage of energy from renewables is an unsolved puzzle yet. With countries planning to abandon combustion in couple of decades, what else to hope for but progress in storage technology, accessibility and distribution? Car makers have little problems to manufacture electric cars only but the rest is mostly outside of their influence.
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Re: Electric car

#174  Postby Macdoc » Aug 09, 2017 4:20 am

It's not unsolved .....there are numerous situations akready in place ( Norway pumped storage )
S Australia Tesla Battery, molten salt ...

Just google renewable storage and inform yourself.

start reading here
http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/energy-storage.html

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Re: Electric car

#175  Postby tuco » Aug 09, 2017 4:44 am

If its not solved, which is not, its unsolved. If it was solved no V2G, for example, would be considered. That there are numerous technologies already does not mean its solved, let alone profitable.

The research question asks whether it is profitable to invest in increased
pumped hydro storage capacity in Norway to exploit Germany’s increasing
need to balance their expanding share of intermittent renewable electricity
generation. Based on the results and the discussion there are no findings
directly supporting profitability.


PHS is a high capacity storage alternative with low energy losses compared to
other technologies. Unfortunately, the implementation time is lengthy, and
there are some environmental concerns, which reduces the public
acceptance. Furthermore, the power-intensive industries are also wary of the
impact of PHS. Another concern is the future variability of prices due to
different levels of installed renewable power. The implementation of solar
power has reduced the price differences between day and night, implying
less attractive investment opportunities for flexible power productions,
including PHS.

https://brage.bibsys.no/xmlui/bitstream ... sequence=1

So now we gonna Google articles supporting our opinion, right? And do you know what we gonna end up with? With definition of "(un)solved".

If its solved, lets build pump storage and move onto other problems to solve. Thanks for reading.
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Re: Electric car

#176  Postby Macdoc » Aug 09, 2017 10:18 pm

Tuco ....the Norwegians and others have been using pumped storage for a long time .....

Don't try defend an indefensible comment.
and the Swiss even longer

They’re called pumped water storage, and the technology is the world’s largest energy storage system, representing 98% of installed storage capacity worldwide. First deployed in the 1890s in the Swiss and Austrian Alps, pumped water storage is essentially two large reservoirs of water at different elevations. Water is pumped uphill when electricity is cheap and plentiful, and runs downhill, spinning turbines and generating electricity, when needed.


Pumped storage is not available everywhere but let's just say Norway could be the battery for ALL OF EUROPE !!!

Compared to chemical batteries, flywheels, compressed air, and more esoteric technologies, pumped water storage is larger, infinitely rechargeable and highly efficient (80% or more in most cases). It’s also poised to become the go-to solution for many electrical grids that are embracing renewable energy at an unprecedented rate: 147 gigawatts of renewable power capacity was added in 2015, the most ever built in a single year.
Last week, GE announced it was retrofitting a hydroelectric plant in Switzerland with variable-speed turbines to give Europe’s grid far better storage capacity for its renewable sources. The Linthal plant is among the most extreme of the pumped storage makeovers happening around the world. It’s perched 2,490 meters (8,100 feet) above sea level between two mountain lakes separated by a cliff twice the height of the Eiffel Tower. At full capacity of 23 billion gallons, the plant can generate about 1,450 megawatts of electricity, the equivalent of a nuclear plant. GE swapped out its conventional turbines for variable-speed models that will store and generate far more power.



and

Norway’s hydropower reservoirs make up nearly half of Europe’s energy storage capacity. European grid operators need energy storage to cope with an ever-mounting, always-shifting torrent of wind power. See the connection? So does Norway. In December, engineers will energize a new subsea power cable that will begin to bridge the gap between need and opportunity, greatly expanding European power systems’ access to Norway’s hydropower-rich power grid.

The 240-kilometer cable across the Skagerrak Strait separating southern Norway and northern Denmark is Norway’s first new power link to Denmark since 1993. Called Skagerrak 4, its high-voltage direct current (HVDC) converters—the electronic units at either end of the line that transform AC into high-voltage DC and vice versa—are also the building blocks for more ambitious cables from Norway to wind-power heavyweights Germany and the United Kingdom. Construction on those is expected to commence during the coming year.


that's now
Norway’s hydropower reservoirs make up nearly half of Europe’s energy storage capacity.

you understand now eh???
no quibbles about now ???

Your position is like considering wide spread use of electricity "unsolved" because the Artic is not electrified yet.. :roll:
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Re: Electric car

#177  Postby tuco » Aug 09, 2017 10:41 pm

Its tuco ;)

I understand it, there is nothing non-understandable about it respectively. What you do not seem to understand is the puzzle metaphor. We were talking about V2G which is an elegant concept because it consists of very large number of redundancies, has higher efficiency and lower cost, does not have environmental impact and is lets say natural addition to electric cars and infrastructure they will use.

The fact - btw its not needed to bold and then quote again I am not an idiot - that currently PHS amounts for almost 1/2 of all storage tells me that there are no better solutions yet.

I can only repeat, if its solved forget esoteric technologies and build only PHS, but that is not so. You seem to take my comment as ignorant, as I was not aware of pump storage, and that is not so either.
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