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#1  Postby z8000783 » Dec 04, 2011 7:46 pm

There was a rather long and detailed thread about the myth of information and DNA etc.

I have searched but can't find it, anyone know where it's gone. Any good websites would also be useful.

Ta

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Re: Information

#2  Postby Grace » Dec 05, 2011 9:51 pm

I think it was the myth of the information gene. Genes and DNA are different. You have to type in the exact key words in order for a search engine to work properly.
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Re: Information

#3  Postby z8000783 » Dec 06, 2011 8:59 am

Thanks Grace, still no luck with those words though.

I know a lot of members here participated (I just lurked on that one) so I hoped someone would have a link in their Posts.

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Re: Information

#4  Postby Grace » Dec 07, 2011 3:53 am

That's why we need to write things down or cut and paste then save it in a file for this very reason. Sorry, can't be of more help.
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Re: Information

#5  Postby Rilx » Dec 07, 2011 11:16 am

Googling [myth information dna "Rational Scepticism"] gives 2000 results. Maybe you find it there.

I've found that Google is mostly better search engine than web sites' own ones.
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Re: Information

#6  Postby hackenslash » Dec 07, 2011 11:28 am

There's this one from the old forum, which is a peanut gallery thread for the débâcle between theropod and sticksnstones on the proposal 'The information in DNA/RNA necessarily requires an intelligent designer'. It contains some excellent stuff from Just A Theory and susu.exp, among others, on the different formulations of information theory

The debate itself can be found here, although it isn't that interesting, TBH.
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Re: Information

#7  Postby hackenslash » Dec 07, 2011 12:15 pm

Just realised that Just A Theory's contribution is not in that thread, but his truly excellent post can be found here. This is a stupendous bit of work.
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Re: Information

#8  Postby Rumraket » Dec 07, 2011 1:03 pm

Another great place to learn something about "information" in DNA sequences is in this thread: http://www.leagueofreason.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7599 on leagueofreason.co.uk. and to follow the blog of Jeffrey Shallit here: http://recursed.blogspot.com/
He has a lot of old posts where he takes apart many of the various inane claims of ID proponents and creationists regarding information theory and it's relation to biology. I've learned most of what I understand about the subject(and I'm really just a layman myself) from reading places like that, so I don't think it's required that you're particularly well educated in science or mathematically gifted to comprehend the relationship between gene sequences and information theory

Amusingly, he has this challenge to creationists who start blurping on about information and DNA, which supposedly none of them have passed yet.

I've written a few posts about it myself on this forum, back in a thread where we addressed the claims of Jireh. I think my first post that tries to explain how information get's "into" the genome is this one. He presents a number of objections throughout the thread after that, which I subsequently address, I think it should be pretty easy to follow the reasoning I and others offer there.
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Re: Information

#9  Postby z8000783 » Feb 03, 2012 1:01 pm

Someone has just post this on a FB page. He is an ID'er and is bright. It is the usual argument about information do being to arise from anywhere except an Intelligent Designer. I don't know much about this subject in order to debunk it. Would anyone here who knows what they are talking about like to have whack?
Right I see, well fair enough, let me briefly explain what ID theorists mean by information, the video I posted expounds on it in sufficient depth so if its still not clear after this please watch a bit of the video.

We begin with Shannon information or Shannon information theory if you like. Shannon equates information with the reduction of uncertainty. The more uncertainty reduced the more information conveyed. In his theory information and improbability are inversely proportional, which is in a sense intuitive. I can't think of a good example but there are many on the internet. Information is well defined and well quantified, information theorists (or anyone really) can calculate the information conveyed in bits, kilobits, megabits and so on. Richard Dawkins wrote a good article so let me just steal his example.

""So if you know that a baby’s been born, and you want to know what sex it is, is it a boy or a girl, and I tell you it’s a girl, then you’ve received one bit on information, because one bit is the amount of information needed to halve the prior uncertainty of the receiver. The prior uncertainty of the receiver in the case of a baby being born is that it could be a boy or it could be a girl, it’s 50/50, approximately 50/50. So there are two possibilities in the receiver’s mind before the message comes. When the message comes, that’s been divided and there’s only one. That’s one bit of information. That’s a very, very simple example, and what Shannon worked out was how to do the same kind of trick for any message, not just simple messages like it’s a boy or it’s a girl, but any message you like. And information theory, as measured in bits, it’s a logarithmic measure, information theory as measured in bits is used all over the place.""

Shannon information is limited in that it doesn't consider the usefulness of a sequence - GHJKL and HELLO have the same amount of Shannon information as they are both composed of the 26 letter English alphabet so the amount of uncertainty eliminated by each alphabet is equal. However HELLO is an example of functional information - because it correlate with an independently given pattern- The word "Hello" that you already knew from before.

Since at any given cite in the DNA backbone, there is a possibility of four bases the probability of the occurrence of a specific nucleotide at that site is 1/4. For two particular nucleotides the probability equals 1/4 x 1/4, then for three 1/4 x 1/4 x 1/4 and so on. The equation for calculating information is (I = -log2 P) where p = probability. The longer the sequence the more information conveyed and the greater the improbability. (Again this idea is explained in greater detail in the video above).

The so called "confusing" idea of "specified complexity" is simply - an improbable sequence as measure by Shannon's information theory, that conforms to an independently given pattern and has a function. DNA has all these qualities (the information encoded in DNA contains the assemble instruction of proteins as you know) and that's why the origin of life remains a mystery. Based on our uniform experience - the only known cause of specified complexity is intelligence.

Richard Dawkins openly admits that no one knows how the information required for life got there. He just doesn't think the idea of a designer is useful because it raises the question of where did the designer come from? Well at least his honest, and as a materials he says " we may never know how life began". But as a theist , you're rejection of an intervention by God in this particular instance seems strange?

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Re: Information

#10  Postby Rumraket » Feb 03, 2012 4:48 pm

ID bullshit wrote:DNA has all these qualities (the information encoded in DNA contains the assemble instruction of proteins as you know) and that's why the origin of life remains a mystery. Based on our uniform experience - the only known cause of specified complexity is intelligence.

"Specified complexity" is William Dembski's invented term and has no real meaning, value or application. There has been so much waffling about with the term it's hard to know where to begin.
In short, Dembski asserts evolution can't produce it because of what he calls the "law of conservation of specified information". No such law actually exists, it's simply something he made up by misrepresenting the so-called "No Free Lunch theorem".
What the No Free Lunch theorem actually says is that, averaged over all possible fitness landscapes, no algorithm can do better(i.e. search more efficiently for peaks) than a blind, random walk.
What Dembski mispresents it to say is that no algorithm can do better than a random walk on any single landscape.

Furthermore, why would a sequence be more improbable just because it does something(has function)? (i.e. is "specified" and "complex"). No answer to this question is ever given, it's just blindly asserted to be the case. Also, DNA isn't a language, there are no "words", so any given sequence, even a completely random and scrambled one, can still potentially be a functional sequence in that it can transcribe into a functional RNA ribozyme of some sort.

Last but not least, the origin of life is unrelated to the evolution of the genetic code, which is what he's mistakenly alluding to when he says "(the information encoded in DNA contains the assemble instruction of proteins as you know) and that's why the origin of life remains a mystery.".
The origin of protein assembly is the evolution of the genetic code. The genetic code is a later evolutionary invention that happened in an RNA world(which should not be confused with a RNA-first-world hypothesis for the origin of life. I know this is confusing but there are two RNA worlds*), since RNA ribozymes aren't coded like proteins are.

* There are two RNA worlds.
1. The RNA world we know existed but don't know whether truly was the first genetic system of life.
- This RNA world is inferred to exist from the universality of the genetic code, the biochemical synthesis of DNA(which happens from RNA precursors, which means DNA is a later evolutionary extention of the RNA biosynthesis pathways), the catalytic core of the Ribosome(which translates mRNA into proteins) is a Ribozyme and that tRNA is made RNA.
In other words, we have direct biochemical evidence that RNA came before DNA and served as the previous genetic system of life. The template directed synthesis of protein by translation of DNA sequence into protein sequence marks the evolutionary transtition from an RNA to a DNA based genetic sytem, it does NOT mark the ultimate origin of life.

2. The hypothetical first RNA-based genetic system that originated in the first organism.
This is a hypothesis, and we simply don't know whether RNA truly came first, or if there was something before that too. It's too old to know, there are no remnants in extant life of what, if anything, came before it.
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