Is the inner ear in really part of the respiratory system ?

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Is the inner ear in really part of the respiratory system ?

#1  Postby ZoonoTIKK » Oct 07, 2019 1:13 pm

There are these papers which strongly imply that the inner ear hair cells, and not the medulla, is primarily the driving factor in the CO2 drive reflex

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21130842

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3988803/

But every fMRI study done on chemoreceptors has shown only areas of the brain and carotid bodies light up in response to CO2. I could not find any fMRI study papers showing that the inner ears light up in response to CO2 or any histological evidence that the hair cells of the inner ear are chemosensitive and play a larger role in chemosensation than the brain like these studies are trying to imply. It is said the central chemoreceptors in the brain contribute to 85% of the CO2 drive reflex and the peripheral chemoreceptors contribute 15%, which seems to leave little room for the inner ear hair cells to play such a vital and significant part (53% of the respiratory drive was lost when both ears were damaged).

The papers in question were trying to link SIDs to inner ear damage.

edit -
Here's a paper which includes a review of the above studies (see section 5.2)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3812300/
Last edited by ZoonoTIKK on Oct 08, 2019 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is the inner ear in really part of the respiratory system ?

#2  Postby zoon » Oct 08, 2019 10:29 am

ZoonoTIKK wrote:There are these papers which strongly imply that the inner ear hair cells, and not the medulla, is primarily the driving factor in the CO2 drive reflex

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21130842

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3988803/

But every fMRI study done on chemoreceptors has shown only areas of the brain and carotid bodies light up in response to CO2. I could not find any fMRI study papers showing that the inner ears light up in response to CO2 or any histological evidence that the hair cells of the inner ear are chemosensitive and play a larger role in chemosensation than the brain like these studies are trying to imply. It is said the central chemoreceptors in the brain contribute to 85% of the CO2 drive reflex and the peripheral chemoreceptors contribute 15%, which seems to leave little room for the inner ear hair cells to play such a vital and significant part (53% of the respiratory drive was lost when both ears were damaged).

The papers in question were trying to link SIDs to inner ear damage.

Welcome to a more complex life-form than myself! I have no specialist knowledge in these matters, so I’m speculating as an amateur.

As you say, the studies which you link to are examining the effect of inner-ear damage. Perhaps the CO2 drive reflex depends on a functioning inner ear, for example, the hair cells may be sending out a baseline stream of nerve impulses which interact with the signals from CO2 chemoreceptors? This would explain the results even if there are no relevant chemoreceptors in the inner ear, and no extra response to CO2. The ears of tetrapods may originally have evolved for breathing, according to a 2006 paper described in an article here, so it might not be entirely surprising if they still have some link to respiratory control?

My suggestion isn’t convincing from an evolutionary point of view, as it’s supposing that a vestigial link with a negative effect on survival has been maintained for many millions of years.
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Debunk this: inner ear is part of the respiratory system

#3  Postby ZoonoTIKK » Oct 09, 2019 7:34 pm

This scientist (Reubens) said sudden death syndrome in sleep is caused by damaged inner ears. he said that the brainstem plays very little role in CO2 detection compared to the ears, and if we damage both ears, we will lose 53% of our respiratory drive, and could develop fatal breathing irregularities.

His 'proof' of this was a study on mice done by Allen et al in 2011 (on NIH) where control mice were left with healthy ears and another group were injected with gentamicin into their ears. They were put to sleep and CO2 was put into their chamber. the mice with damaged ears did not respond to the excess CO2 and died but the healthy ones did not.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21130842

This study was mentioned in a peer review and it said there was a loss of neurons within the vestibular nuclei as well as hair cell loss. However I saw a news article from 2016 where he still says he thinks the hair cells in our ears are vital at telling us to breathe, so vital that if we lose them our brainstem cannot by itself keep us breathing normally.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3812300/ (see section 5.2)

I looked on Wikipedia and it says nothing about the inner ear being a critical chemoreceptor, and his statements are going very much against established science and neurology that concludes the brainstem is responsible for 80% of the respiratory drive and the peripheral chemoreceptors 20%, so in established science there is no room for the inner ear to take up 53% responsibility.
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Re: Debunk this: inner ear is part of the respiratory system

#4  Postby newolder » Oct 09, 2019 8:32 pm

Pardon?

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Re: Is the inner ear in really part of the respiratory system ?

#5  Postby ZoonoTIKK » Oct 10, 2019 3:14 pm

Also, I'm due in for a vestibular neuectromy tomorrow, where I'm having my vestibular system taken out so Reuben's study has caused be to be very anxious about the surgery which is why I created this thread to debunk this findings and claims.

This person's answer on Quora also summarized the mouse study and includes diagrams https://www.quora.com/Why-do-mice-sense ... lai-Kamala

http://content.usatoday.com/communities ... Z9WNEZKiUn
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Re: Is the inner ear in really part of the respiratory system ?

#6  Postby scott1328 » Oct 10, 2019 4:36 pm

You should be having this conversation with your physician and your surgeon. The LAST thing you should be doing is seeking advice from random people on the Intranet.
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Re: Is the inner ear in really part of the respiratory system ?

#7  Postby zoon » Oct 11, 2019 10:19 am

ZoonoTIKK wrote:Also, I'm due in for a vestibular neuectromy tomorrow, where I'm having my vestibular system taken out so Reuben's study has caused be to be very anxious about the surgery which is why I created this thread to debunk this findings and claims.

This person's answer on Quora also summarized the mouse study and includes diagrams https://www.quora.com/Why-do-mice-sense ... lai-Kamala

http://content.usatoday.com/communities ... Z9WNEZKiUn

I hope the surgery goes well.

Only from googling, vestibular neurectomy seems to have been a standard operation for many years, and I haven't found any suggestion that it leads to breathing complications for the human patients. Animal experiments may well have been more drastic, for example, exposing them to high levels of CO2. As scott1328 says, your physician and surgeon will have far more informed advice.
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