Well, now. Fat Makes You Fat. Who'd have thunk it.

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Well, now. Fat Makes You Fat. Who'd have thunk it.

#1  Postby Alan B » Jul 19, 2018 2:15 pm

NHS
'Proof' it's fats, not carbs, that cause weight gain – but only in mice

"Fat consumption is the only cause of weight gain!" declares the Mail Online, reporting on a study where mice were exposed to different diets and monitored for weight gain and increased energy intake.
Around 30 different diets, all highly controlled, were given to mice over a period of 12 weeks.
The diets varied in the amount of carbohydrate, fat and protein they contained. The mice's body composition and food intake was measured every day.
Mice who consumed a steady amount of protein but an increasing amount of dietary fat gained the most body fat during the study.
There was no change in body fat gain when the researchers gave mice increasing amounts of carbohydrates while they ate steady amounts of fat and protein.
This study gives us possible insight into the effect that making small changes to specific dietary components may have on body fat gain.
One point noted by the researchers is fat stimulates the so-called "reward pathways" in the brain, which leads to a strong desire to consume more of it, as seen with addictive substances such as alcohol and cocaine.
It may be the case that the more fat you eat, the more fat you want to eat (at least in mice).
But it's unclear whether these findings would apply to people, or what role physical activity might have in modifying the results.

Continues/
So, if this research can be replicated and can be shown to be relevant to human physiology, what of this carb. hype?
We're getting food manufacturers to reduce sugar all over the place, not a bad thing, in my opinion, but which may turn out to be a 'false alarm'.
What I haven't been able to determine is, who is financing this study?
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Re: Well, now. Fat Makes You Fat. Who'd have thunk it.

#2  Postby Cito di Pense » Jul 19, 2018 3:38 pm

A simple control-volume analysis should suffice. Let's assume the control volume (a person) is not retaining water or excreting excessive amounts of sugars of some kind. If the heat content in the input is greater than the heat content of the output (and that includes waste heat of metabolism and the heat content of excrement) then the balance is going to be turned into an increase in body mass of some kind. If I've neglected any key factors, I'm sure someone will pipe up. The devil's in the details, of course, which is the control volume's metabolic quiddities. I think what any epidemiological study is going to focus on is whatever it decides is an average metabolism, so you should ask after what that is.
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Re: Well, now. Fat Makes You Fat. Who'd have thunk it.

#3  Postby laklak » Jul 19, 2018 7:18 pm

Fewer calories in than out and you lose weight. Turn it around and you gain. We've done the research, in the Gulag, in Nazi work camps, in Chinese slave labor factories - no fat people there.

Despite the evidence, many still believes there's some superfood or combination of superfoods that will make losing weight simple, fast, and easy. Acai berries didn't work, nor raw turmeric, nor celery, tons of apples, water before meals, not eating starches with protein, or whatever else they're touting this week in Women's World magazine under the headline "Doctor's Find The Secret To Easy Weight Loss!". Maybe something we haven't thought of, like fermented squid genitalia, though that's probably a delicacy in parts of China.
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Re: Well, now. Fat Makes You Fat. Who'd have thunk it.

#4  Postby OlivierK » Jul 19, 2018 10:00 pm

Yep.

Many, many moons ago I worked on the foreign exchange dealing floor of a major investment bank, and it fell to one of my colleagues to be regularly interviewed for radio financial news segments. Were the interviewer stupid enough, having been informed that the Australian dollar had risen that day, to ask why it had risen, then the answer was always the same: "More buyers than sellers."
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Re: Well, now. Fat Makes You Fat. Who'd have thunk it.

#5  Postby Macdoc » Jul 19, 2018 11:09 pm

Fewer calories in than out and you lose weight.


Easy to say - not so straight forward in practice.

Every person metabolizes differently and a 100 cal of steak and 100 cal of cane sugar result in different uptakes.

Here is just one aspect that clouds the equation

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5045147/

At the time of the woman's fecal transplant in 2011, her weight was stable at 136 pounds, and her Body Mass Index (BMI) was 26. Then 32 years old, she had always been of normal weight.

The transplant used donor stool from the woman's overweight but otherwise healthy teenage daughter, administered via colonoscopy, to restore a healthy balance of bacteria in the woman's gut, curing her C. difficile infection.

Sixteen months later, the woman weighed 170 pounds, and her BMI was 33, meeting medical criteria for obesity. The weight gain persisted despite a medically supervised liquid protein diet and exercise program. Continuing efforts to diet and exercise did not lower her weight: Three years after the transplant, she weighed 177 pounds with a BMI of 34.5, and she remains obese today.


https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 125810.htm

and more here.

From your mastication levels to your gut bacteria to your mitochondrial activity level there is no equation similar to e=MC2 for humans as we simply do not understand our mechanisms sufficiently.

Then there is your brown fat distribution ...another black hole of complexity

The central question that must now be addressed is whether BAT function significantly impacts energy balance and human obesity. Classic experiments in rodents have shown that BAT is activated and proliferates in response to overfeeding (11). This so-called “diet-induced adaptive thermogenesis” is an apparent compensatory mechanism to limit excess weight gain and obesity. Overfeeding studies in humans have provided evidence for dramatic interindividual differences in the energy cost of feeding (12–14). Both anecdotally and in controlled studies, it is known that individuals with similar dietary intake and exercise regimes exhibit dramatic differences in their tendency to gain weight. The extent to which BAT-mediated adaptive thermogenesis could account for some of this variability in metabolic efficiency is not known. The consensus from the recent human BAT studies, and especially the large-scale analysis by Cypess et al. (7), suggests an inverse correlation between BMI and BAT activity. Saito et al. also provide compelling data that BAT activity diminishes with age. This phenomenon would explain, at least to some degree, the tendency for people to gain weight during aging. Whether the age-related decline in BAT activity is caused by reduced sympathetic nerve function, reduced sensitivity of BAT to adrenergic signals, or cell-autonomous decreases in brown adipocyte differentiation or function is an open question for future experiments. Altogether, these new data strongly suggest that BAT, though often overlooked in human metabolism, likely plays a significant role in the regulation of body weight.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2699856/

ain't all that simple...:coffee:
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Re: Well, now. Fat Makes You Fat. Who'd have thunk it.

#6  Postby laklak » Jul 20, 2018 3:24 am

Sure, you have to apply various factors, like how they chew their food, gut bacteria, or how much refined sugar they eat, but the essential equation stays true. Maybe some people have to have 10% less calories to lose weight, others may need 15%. But nobody gains weight and fat when there's a significant calorie deficit. The woman on the liquid diet can't gain weight unless that weight comes from somewhere, so unless her fecal transplant included enough chlorophyll bodies for her to photosynthesize she'll start losing weight if they further reduce her intake. Assuming "medical supervision" means she never sucked down a bag of Big Macs when no one was watching.

I remember watching a show about weight loss, a woman had her jaws wired shut but was still gaining weight. She was melting Hershey's chocolate bars and drinking them.
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Re: Well, now. Fat Makes You Fat. Who'd have thunk it.

#7  Postby Macdoc » Jul 20, 2018 7:40 am

Bodies go into scavenger at some point ...I think there was a test in England where some people on 1300 cal were still gaining weight.

Exercise, age. metabolic fitness and the source and mix of the calories have a bit role ....every person is a test case of one and reducing human metabolism to an equation is just plain wrong headed.

I wish I could find the article where a doctor apologized to his patients for quoting the same mantra. He admitted flat out he was wrong. Doctors get about 3 days of nutritional training in the multiple years they are in school.

The field is seeing crazy good understanding and some gains especially in mitochondrial enhancement ...often via unexpected pathways. Mitochondria are the fundamental engine for human energy/conversion management.

This is a dangerous but biologically valid phenomena many are risking
http://siimland.com/ketosis-and-mitochondria/

papers underlying it
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23233333

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3821009/

The simplest formula is keep a normal diet and increase exercise.....shot gun approach that is reliable if all other factors remain relatively neutral.

Putting your metabolism into ketosis to lose weight ????....if you saw what my kid ate you'd throw up .....but he is pretty trim and it's important for him for his type one diabetes ....even tho ketosis is even higher risk for him.

The take away is it's not a simple formula.

but it sure powers a big industry :roll: :coffee:
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Re: Well, now. Fat Makes You Fat. Who'd have thunk it.

#8  Postby Alan B » Jul 20, 2018 1:14 pm

I used to choose foods according to their Glycaemic Index (GI) until I realised that the method used to determine the GI was meaningless. The GI of a food is determined by measuring the Blood Glucose level in 10 volunteers after ingesting a particular food. The average of the results is then published as the 'GI' for that particular food.
This means that any food with a 'low' GI may be suitable for one person but not another. Each of us has a unique biome which determines how we process different foods. 'Averages' have nothing to do with it.

So, I don't use GI any more.
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Re: Well, now. Fat Makes You Fat. Who'd have thunk it.

#9  Postby zulumoose » Jul 20, 2018 1:47 pm

Averages are not meaningless unless the variation is so massive that there is no pattern.

Even so, for each individual a food with a higher GI will produce a higher spike, so it is still a valid comparison for every individual, regardless of how far from the average response they stray.

Would you say the warning for lethal dose of a substance is meaningless if it had been determined by average response?
It will still vary from individual to individual, but half the average lethal dose is still less risky for everyone compared to the lethal dose, regardless of individual response.
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Re: Well, now. Fat Makes You Fat. Who'd have thunk it.

#10  Postby laklak » Jul 20, 2018 2:01 pm

GI is a starting point but yeah, everybody metabolizes food differently.
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Re: Well, now. Fat Makes You Fat. Who'd have thunk it.

#11  Postby Alan B » Jul 20, 2018 2:49 pm

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Re: Well, now. Fat Makes You Fat. Who'd have thunk it.

#12  Postby laklak » Jul 20, 2018 4:55 pm

Mrs. Lak is always on me about the glycemic index shite, I will most definitely link her to that article. Fuck sweet potatoes, I'm having a baker tonight with butter, sour cream, bacon bits, and shredded cheese. Who wants to live forever?
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Re: Well, now. Fat Makes You Fat. Who'd have thunk it.

#13  Postby Alan B » Jul 20, 2018 8:03 pm

zulumoose wrote:Averages are not meaningless unless the variation is so massive that there is no pattern.

Even so, for each individual a food with a higher GI will produce a higher spike, so it is still a valid comparison for every individual, regardless of how far from the average response they stray.

Would you say the warning for lethal dose of a substance is meaningless if it had been determined by average response?
It will still vary from individual to individual, but half the average lethal dose is still less risky for everyone compared to the lethal dose, regardless of individual response.

Twaddle.
It is not true that a high GI food will be high for everyone or a low GI food will be low for everyone. If that was the case, then there would be no need to take the average BG for ten people as is done to determine the GI. A 'low GI' food can be low for one person and high for another. It's the individual response that matters.
Last edited by Alan B on Jul 21, 2018 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Well, now. Fat Makes You Fat. Who'd have thunk it.

#14  Postby Macdoc » Jul 21, 2018 1:36 am

It will still vary from individual to individual, but half the average lethal dose is still less risky for everyone compared to the lethal dose, regardless of individual response.


This is not a valid comparison but even there - there is a huge range of response by individual.

Humans have hundreds of thousands of years to adapt their energy uptake to periods of feast or famine - those using ketosis to lose weight are tapping into one of those channels that normally kick in only when all the carbs are entirely exhausted to force the system into burning adipose fat reserves.....runners hitting the wall 20 miles out.

IT IS NOT SIMPLE...one reason people rarely keep weight off but gravitate towards a "set weight" ....they tried over feeding some prisoners who were quite active in weight lifting etc and even with twice the calories their weight did not vary much at all as there a number of responses that kick in.....hell coffee and the speed of your bowel are a factor.
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Re: Well, now. Fat Makes You Fat. Who'd have thunk it.

#15  Postby romansh » Jul 21, 2018 2:40 am

laklak wrote:Mrs. Lak is always on me about the glycemic index shite, I will most definitely link her to that article. Fuck sweet potatoes, I'm having a baker tonight with butter, sour cream, bacon bits, and shredded cheese. Who wants to live forever?

Mrs rom went on a diet recently - last six months … she does not partake in dairy, the nightshade family and glutens. This ostensibly was to control inflammation. I must admit I was skeptical especially with some of the things my wife reported what the doctor had said. Having said all that the pain from the inflammation "seems" to have reduced. I am willing to consider this as a placebo effect.


A side effect, she has lost weight without trying … she eats as much as she ever did.


But you are right; fuck sweet potatoes.
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Re: Well, now. Fat Makes You Fat. Who'd have thunk it.

#16  Postby Macdoc » Jul 21, 2018 5:12 am

That's a different topic and well established but again shows how different people are. Many people not of European stock cannot digest cow's milk ( yogurt is okay ) and for some glutens is downright death defying ( my sister-in-law )
Others are seafood allergies. Inflammation is a huge topic with implications for heart disease and auto-immune conditions.

Hell afaik we have no idea why we have different blood types....I am willing to be shown we do.
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Re: Well, now. Fat Makes You Fat. Who'd have thunk it.

#17  Postby romansh » Jul 22, 2018 1:24 am

My point was changing the type of food intake, and presumably the resulting biome can affect one's weight and presumably type of weight. Water versus fat for example.


I don't get a sense Mrs rom's exercise regime has changed nor the total chemical energy intake.
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Re: Well, now. Fat Makes You Fat. Who'd have thunk it.

#18  Postby Hermit » Jul 22, 2018 2:06 am

Alan B wrote:NHS

Continues/
So, if this research can be replicated and can be shown to be relevant to human physiology, what of this carb. hype?[/quote]
It's a bit more complicated than that. Grossly simplifying the complexities, Laklak nailed it:
laklak wrote:Fewer calories in than out and you lose weight. Turn it around and you gain.

You can lose or gain weight by a change in diet, a change in lifestyle other than diet, a change in metabolism or any combination of those factors.

I experienced a fairly drastic change via a change in lifestyle a couple of years ago. Every time my biggest bottlebrush tree clogged the sewer I had to call a plumber to clear the obstruction with an electric eel. This used to happen at irregular intervals ranging from eight to 18 months and cost me around $190 each time. Eventually I decided to have the earthenware pipe replaced with one made of PVC. The lengths would be glued together, eliminating at least seven joins the tree's roots used to grow through.

In order to save a few hundred bucks I decided to dig thee trench for it myself. It was a big trench - seven metres long, half a metre wide, 1.4 metres deep at the shallow end and 1.6 at the other. Not as easy as it could have been, because since the original sewer was laid in the the early 1970s the sandy clay had hardened considerably. In some places the pick would just glance off it, throwing sparks as it went. Additionally, there was no space to leave the dirt next to the trench. I had to barrow the lot, about nine or ten tons of it, to a spot a few metres away. So, yeah, hard yakka. I spread the work, 40 or 50 hours, out over about ten days. At the start of the job I weighed 106 kilos. By the time I finished backfilling the trench my weight had dropped to 91. My diet had not changed in that time, except for the fact that I actually ate more of the same foods as before.

That was a couple of years ago. Now I weigh 103 kg. Looking for another trench to dig.
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Re: Well, now. Fat Makes You Fat. Who'd have thunk it.

#19  Postby aban57 » Jul 26, 2018 2:46 pm

Hormones have an important impact too. When I started the hormone treatment, I took 7 kilos in 6 weeks, without any change in my food intake or in sport activities.
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Re: Well, now. Fat Makes You Fat. Who'd have thunk it.

#20  Postby Macdoc » Jul 26, 2018 6:16 pm

The only simple equation for an individual whose weight is stable ...more exercise will reduce your weight to a point tho in some cases weight can go up if you put on a lot of muscle even tho body fat may drop dramatically
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