Does Holocaust Denial Prohibition Make Sense?

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Re: Does Holocaust Denial Prohibition Make Sense?

#141  Postby Horwood Beer-Master » Jan 30, 2012 10:53 pm

NineBerry wrote:
Horwood Beer-Master wrote:
NineBerry wrote:...There is no way of denying the holocaust without inciting hatred...

Wouldn't the Muslims say the same about badmouthing Mohammed? Where does this end?


That the holocaust happened is a scientific consensus. That Mohammed was a prophet is religious belief. Quite a difference...

I'm confused. Is this about truth? Or about a group feeling threatened?

NineBerry wrote:...
Horwood Beer-Master wrote:
NineBerry wrote:...Different states find different balances in different areas based on their own culture and context.

That's all very well, but what if Germany and others with this law try to impose it EU-wide?


We are having a much more difficult problem. We are developing a globalized culture.

Do we want any globalised culture to be saddled with this specifically German piece of cultural baggage?
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Re: Does Holocaust Denial Prohibition Make Sense?

#142  Postby Varangian » Jan 30, 2012 11:26 pm

It isn't just a specific German piece of cultural baggage - the Holocaust was made worse by the enthusiastic support from groups and organizations in countries allied with or occupied by Nazi Germany. The post-WW2 generaions in Germany are doing penance for things that transpired before they were born, while the collaborating countries pretend that they had no part in it.
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Re: Does Holocaust Denial Prohibition Make Sense?

#143  Postby Shrunk » Jan 31, 2012 12:29 am

NineBerry wrote:We know that holocaust denial is false and libellous. Don't need to have an expert hearing on that every second Wednesday. A court doesn't need to call expert witnesses to decide whether grass is green or not. The holocaust is a historic fact. Anyone who denies that only does so to promote national socialism and anti-semitism.


We know that it's false, sure. Libellous? That's something that cannot possibly be known in advance. Libel has to cause actual harm. You can't find someone guilty of libel based on the assumption that what he said would have caused harm if he said it, even though he hasn't said it yet. If you're going to pursue this analogy to libel law, you have to accept all the implications.

If someone publishes an article in a repectable newspaper falsely claiming that you are a child molester, and people believe it, and your reputation or career suffers as a result, you can successfully sue for libel. If someone else on this forum then writes "NineBerry is a child molester" and it's just an insult from the board troll that everyone just ignores, you wouldn't have a case, even though you had already successfully sued someone for saying the same thing. The content of the speech itself is not sufficient to prove libel.

However, by analogy to the German Holocaust denial laws, both actions would be viewed as the same, and just as illegal. Which makes no sense to me.
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Re: Does Holocaust Denial Prohibition Make Sense?

#144  Postby NineBerry » Jan 31, 2012 12:45 am

But then you don't know German libel law...
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Re: Does Holocaust Denial Prohibition Make Sense?

#145  Postby Shrunk » Jan 31, 2012 12:59 am

NineBerry wrote:But then you don't know German libel law...


No, I don't. But I doubt it includes statutes like "Anyone who says 'Nineberry is a child molester' is automatically guilty of libel."
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Re: Does Holocaust Denial Prohibition Make Sense?

#146  Postby NineBerry » Jan 31, 2012 1:47 am

Ehm, yes, if you'd publically call me a child molester and this is not true (which it isn't), then you are in for "insult".
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Re: Does Holocaust Denial Prohibition Make Sense?

#147  Postby Shrunk » Jan 31, 2012 5:34 pm

NineBerry wrote:Ehm, yes, if you'd publically call me a child molester and this is not true (which it isn't), then you are in for "insult".


But that's not what I said. You still have the onus of demonstrating that it was in fact an insult, I assume, right? There is no law that specifically protects you from that specific insult.

Whereas the law under discussion, as you describe it, says specifically that one cannot deny the Holocaust, not just that one cannot threaten public order in general.
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Re: Does Holocaust Denial Prohibition Make Sense?

#148  Postby epepke » Jan 31, 2012 8:08 pm

NineBerry wrote:What is the legal situation in the US? Does that victim not have legal means to stop distribution of libellous material?


IANAL, but AFAICT, In order to prove libel in the US you have to

1) show that it is untrue
2) show that it was published with malice aforethought, and
3) show material damages.
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Re: Does Holocaust Denial Prohibition Make Sense?

#149  Postby NineBerry » Jan 31, 2012 8:35 pm

See, that is the difference in culture. In Germany, libel is a criminal matter and there is a law that says you can be judged for libel even for stating factually correct things.

In German culture, reputation/honour is still considered very important in relation to freedom of expression. You have to judge the laws against holocaust denial in that context, too.
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Re: Does Holocaust Denial Prohibition Make Sense?

#150  Postby pinkharrier » Jan 31, 2012 10:50 pm

So in Germany what other big tragedies are beyond dispute and subject to the law? Any or none? None would make the law rather suspect indeed. Why? Because laws have wide application. That's the point of them.
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Re: Does Holocaust Denial Prohibition Make Sense?

#151  Postby NineBerry » Jan 31, 2012 10:58 pm

What other big tragedies are used in Germany to promote hatred against an ethnic group and to promote antidemocratic ideologies?
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Re: Does Holocaust Denial Prohibition Make Sense?

#152  Postby Shrunk » Feb 01, 2012 1:23 am

NineBerry wrote:What other big tragedies are used in Germany to promote hatred against an ethnic group and to promote antidemocratic ideologies?


That's just the point. You don't write laws to target narrow, specific circumstances. Suppose there was no law against theft, then one Sunday morning someone steals a green purse from a woman while she is walking down the street, and the state decides a law is needed to prevent this from happening. The response should not be to pass a law against taking women's green purses on a Sunday morning. The response should be to pass a law against theft.
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Re: Does Holocaust Denial Prohibition Make Sense?

#153  Postby epepke » Feb 01, 2012 8:11 am

NineBerry wrote:See, that is the difference in culture. In Germany, libel is a criminal matter and there is a law that says you can be judged for libel even for stating factually correct things.


Similar to the UK, though some people said that this has changed. I'm not sure nowadays.

In German culture, reputation/honour is still considered very important in relation to freedom of expression. You have to judge the laws against holocaust denial in that context, too.


Well, I actually don't have to. I can judge anything by any standard I like. But never mind that.

Your statement is consistent with the idea of cultural relativism, that you cannot understand an aspect of a culture without understanding how it fits into the culture. (Not to be confused with moral relativism.) I'm enough into anthropology that I find this a good idea.

However, if I am to judge prohibition of holocaust denial in that context, then I am by the same token entitled to judge Judenhass and the holocaust itself in that context. The other fierce allies of the Nazis were the Japanese, who were also big on honor. So maybe being that big on honor sucks in the first place.
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Re: Does Holocaust Denial Prohibition Make Sense?

#154  Postby NineBerry » Feb 01, 2012 11:05 am

As I have said before: You don't need to convince me. I share that opinion, I am just trying to bring some perspective into that, namely that the law against holocaust denial is no extraordinary law. It fits well into the culture (both common, judicial and political culture) of Germany. We have the principle that freedom of expression is limited to protect reputation and to prevent incitement and discrimination. We have the principle of a "well-fortified democracy" which means that the democratic state must actively fight its enemies. And so forth.

There are people out there (and on here) that have a bad agenda and want to proclaim the idea that holocaust denial laws are something extraordinary, a special thing that only exists because of "the Jews" and would not be possible in any other context. That's wrong.
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Re: Does Holocaust Denial Prohibition Make Sense?

#155  Postby Horwood Beer-Master » Feb 01, 2012 11:44 am

NineBerry wrote:...We have the principle of a "well-fortified democracy" which means that the democratic state must actively fight its enemies. And so forth...

Do you not worry that this is potentially a slippery-slope to a kind of McCarthyism? Can it be objectively judged which views are compatible with a safe, secure, tolerant democracy? Who gets to judge?

NineBerry wrote:...There are people out there (and on here) that have a bad agenda and want to proclaim the idea that holocaust denial laws are something extraordinary, a special thing that only exists because of "the Jews" and would not be possible in any other context...

I can see why it may broadly be the case that people actually denying the Holocaust tend to have a "bad agenda", but I think it's very unfair to say the same of people merely critical of holocaust denial laws.
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Re: Does Holocaust Denial Prohibition Make Sense?

#156  Postby epepke » Feb 01, 2012 9:42 pm

NineBerry wrote:As I have said before: You don't need to convince me. I share that opinion, I am just trying to bring some perspective into that, namely that the law against holocaust denial is no extraordinary law. It fits well into the culture (both common, judicial and political culture) of Germany.


I can groove with that.

There are people out there (and on here) that have a bad agenda and want to proclaim the idea that holocaust denial laws are something extraordinary, a special thing that only exists because of "the Jews" and would not be possible in any other context. That's wrong.


What you are saying is that it isn't ad hoc for Jews.

What I've been trying to say, albeit unsuccessfully, is that there is a special category for Jews. It doesn't do any good to say that "the holocaust" is specifically about Jews. That just gives a name to the category, showing that the category exists.
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Re: Does Holocaust Denial Prohibition Make Sense?

#157  Postby Moridin » Feb 01, 2012 9:49 pm

epepke wrote:What I've been trying to say, albeit unsuccessfully, is that there is a special category for Jews. It doesn't do any good to say that "the holocaust" is specifically about Jews. That just gives a name to the category, showing that the category exists.


Actually, most of the victims of the Holocaust were non-Jews, including homosexuals, political opponents, Romani, people with disabilities etc.

In any case, this is just a meta-debate that Holocaust deniers tend to focus on in order to undermine the Holocaust as an historical fact.
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Re: Does Holocaust Denial Prohibition Make Sense?

#158  Postby pinkharrier » Feb 01, 2012 10:55 pm

NineBerry wrote:What other big tragedies are used in Germany to promote hatred against an ethnic group and to promote antidemocratic ideologies?


Denial laws exist outside of Germany so the tragedies don't have to apply to internal events. If France can have, regrettably, denial laws about events in Germany (and soon Turkey), then Germany can have laws about external historical events. So Nineberry, which other events would you like to see covered by denial laws?

In another post you mentioned that people on here had a "bad agenda" for simply hating the idea of denial laws. Well I hate them whether they are applied to Jews or Armenians or Biafrans or victims of Genghis Khan. So what is my "bad agenda"?
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Re: Does Holocaust Denial Prohibition Make Sense?

#159  Postby epepke » Feb 01, 2012 10:59 pm

Moridin wrote:Actually, most of the victims of the Holocaust were non-Jews, including homosexuals, political opponents, Romani, people with disabilities etc.


We've been through that already, and I pointed them out. Then NineBerry talked about how the "holocaust" was specifically about the Jews. There's a context here. It's all available through your browser.

But actually, no. Most of the victims were Jews, if you don't count combatants and POWs. About 60% by the standard measurements.
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Re: Does Holocaust Denial Prohibition Make Sense?

#160  Postby NineBerry » Feb 01, 2012 11:19 pm

The term holocaust specifically refers to the attempted genocide of Jews by Nazi Germany. There were lots of other crimes against humanity in Nazi Germany, but they are not counted as part of the holocaust, however they are still covered by the law banning denial of crimes against humanity by Nazi Germany
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