Does Holocaust Denial Prohibition Make Sense?

Varangian · #1 by **Varangian** » Jan 21, 2012 12:28 am

!	GENERAL MODNOTE Reminder: Discussion on holocaust denial and its prohibition are allowed, but actual holocaust denial or promotion thereof will be treated as sanctionable under the FUA. -reddix

Discussions on the Holocaust can be interesting, but Holocaust denial (or attempts at greatly reducing the numbers murdered) is another thing. For example, Axis History Forum has very strict rules on posting in the "Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes" section, where any claim must be supported. Holocaust deniers try to be clever, and may appear rational, when their goal is to muddy the waters. Besides, Holocaust deniers are fucking pricks by default, and not fit for forums to the left of Stormfront. Anyone wishing to take up Holocaust denial can always read "How To Be A Revisionist Scholar" and try to apply the method...

jamest · #2 by **jamest** » Jan 21, 2012 1:02 am

I can't help but think whether there are thousands of kids in Germany who wonder whether the holocaust did happen, just because the government don't allow anyone to talk about it.

Regina · #3 by **Regina** » Jan 21, 2012 1:05 am

You are confusing denial with talking about it in history lessons. Or anywhere else, for that matter.

logical bob · #4 by **logical bob** » Jan 21, 2012 1:07 am

You can talk about it, you just can't deny that it happened.

Varangian · #5 by **Varangian** » Jan 21, 2012 1:10 am

For those blissfully ignorant of the insidious nature of Holocaust denial and the tactics used by the deniers, read "Denying the Holocaust" by Deborah Lipstadt.

jamest · #6 by **jamest** » Jan 21, 2012 1:10 am

Regina wrote:You are confusing denial with talking about it in history lessons.

Who, me? If so, then my response would be that if the state prohibits holocaust denial, then history lessons are going to be suspect to someone who is aware that history MUST teach something that does not deny that the holocaust took place.

Regina · #7 by **Regina** » Jan 21, 2012 1:13 am

You will find that history as a subject is based on facts, not fiction. In Germany, that is.

Varangian · #8 by **Varangian** » Jan 21, 2012 1:21 am

Wikipedia has a good article on Holocaust denial. I quote the opening paragraphs:

Holocaust denial is the act of denying the genocide of Jews during World War II, usually referred to as the Holocaust. The key claims of Holocaust denial are: the German Nazi government had no official policy or intention of exterminating Jews, Nazi authorities did not use extermination camps and gas chambers to mass murder Jews, and the actual number of Jews killed was significantly (typically an order of magnitude) lower than the historically accepted figure of 5 to 6 million.

Holocaust deniers generally do not accept the term "denial" as an appropriate description of their activities, and use the term "revisionism" instead. Scholars use the term "denial" to differentiate Holocaust deniers from historical revisionists, who use established historical methodologies. The methodologies of Holocaust deniers are criticized as based on a predetermined conclusion that ignores extensive historical evidence to the contrary.

Most Holocaust denial claims imply, or openly state, that the Holocaust is a hoax arising out of a deliberate Jewish conspiracy to advance the interest of Jews at the expense of other peoples. For this reason, Holocaust denial is generally considered to be an antisemitic conspiracy theory.

jamest · #9 by **jamest** » Jan 21, 2012 1:22 am

logical bob wrote:You can talk about it, you just can't deny that it happened.

Which kinda limits what you can talk about. It's a bit like me becoming PM and forbidding any metaphysical talk that is not idealistic, just because I KNOW it's the truth. Thereafter, you can talk about metaphysics, but don't dare mention materialism or you'll suffer the consequences.

Those are the sort of political decisions I would only expect to see happening in tinpot nations, to be honest.

Oh, and before anyone asks, no, I'm not a holocaust denier. Far from it, in fact. I even visited Auschwitz last August. So don't even go there.

jamest · **#10** by **jamest** » Jan 21, 2012 1:24 am

Regina wrote:You will find that history as a subject is based on facts, not fiction. In Germany, that is.

I'm sure that anyone in Germany prohibited to talk about anything but the facts will be reassured by your words. I'm just glad that I'm not a kid living in Germany.

Regina · **#11** by **Regina** » Jan 21, 2012 1:29 am

It's akin to ID in biology classes. Why have it in the curriculum?
Rest assured, if a student brings up the question, he/she will not have to face criminal charges.
Apart from that, there are quite a few "tinpot" nations, which frankly don't care a fiddler's flying fuck what others think about their stance regarding that particular question.

Regina · **#12** by **Regina** » Jan 21, 2012 1:30 am

jamest wrote:
Regina wrote:You will find that history as a subject is based on facts, not fiction. In Germany, that is.

I'm sure that anyone in Germany prohibited to talk about anything but the facts will be reassured by your words. I'm just glad that I'm not a kid living in Germany.

So everything's fine then. :dunno:

jamest · **#13** by **jamest** » Jan 21, 2012 1:52 am

Regina wrote:
jamest wrote:
Regina wrote:You will find that history as a subject is based on facts, not fiction. In Germany, that is.

I'm sure that anyone in Germany prohibited to talk about anything but the facts will be reassured by your words. I'm just glad that I'm not a kid living in Germany.

So everything's fine then.

No, nothing is fine when the state tell you that a fact is what they determine it to be and that you're simply not allowed to discuss any alternatives.
The problem here, for the hard of hearing, is not that of holocaust denial, but of the denial of one's freedom to think for oneself.
Fuck me, PC gone mad.

LucidFlight · **#14** by **LucidFlight** » Jan 21, 2012 1:53 am

jamest wrote:Fuck me, PC gone mad.

This applies for all hate speech, then. Yes?

ETA: hate speech laws, that is.

CdesignProponentsist · **#15** by **CdesignProponentsist** » Jan 21, 2012 1:57 am

HughMcB wrote:
Wiðercora wrote:But if a person is not from Germany and espouses Holocaust Denial, are they still bound by German law? It's not the site which is promoting it, it's the individual.

Of course not. The person is not bound by German law but the site is. And more importantly the owner of the site. Ultimately the owner IS responsible for what is on their website according to the laws of the country where it is hosted.

And otherwise what next, kiddy porn, snuff videos, images of rape?

Do you think an owner of a site such as this should be the fall guy for the sadistic machinations of some hate mongerers?

Not allowing holocaust denial seems like a very reasonable rule to me, German law or not. Just like how we don't enable homophobes, sexists and racists.

I don't think making parallels of kiddy porn, snuff videos and rape images with holocaust denial holds true. Those are the direct victimization of individuals through publicized imagery, where as, Holocaust denial is just and expression of a belief; a completely wrong one but still a belief.

I'm not a denier or a Nazi, but I think state censoring such speech is close to setting a dangerous precedence. I understand it in light of Germany's history, but not sure if it is the right way to go. It is allowed in the US, and because of this, I think it has also been marginalized and not taken seriously by the general public.

Regina · **#16** by **Regina** » Jan 21, 2012 1:58 am

jamest wrote:
Regina wrote:
jamest wrote:
Regina wrote:You will find that history as a subject is based on facts, not fiction. In Germany, that is.

I'm sure that anyone in Germany prohibited to talk about anything but the facts will be reassured by your words. I'm just glad that I'm not a kid living in Germany.

So everything's fine then.

No, nothing is fine when the state tell you that a fact is what they determine it to be and that you're simply not allowed to discuss any alternatives.
The problem here, for the hard of hearing, is not that of holocaust denial, but of the denial of one's freedom to think for oneself.
Fuck me, PC gone mad.

Yep. We live in a dictatorship. You too, if the UK doesn't leave the EU soon.

Holocaust denial is explicitly or implicitly illegal in 16 countries: Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Hungary, Israel, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, and Switzerland.[171] The European Union's Framework decision on Racism and Xenophobia states that denying or grossly trivialising "crimes of genocide" should be made "punishable in all EU Member States".[172] Slovakia criminalized denial of fascist crimes in general in late 2001; in May 2005, the term "Holocaust" was explicitly adopted by the penal code and in 2009, it became illegal to deny any act regarded by an international criminal court as genocide. The Parliament of Hungary adopted the most recent legislation, which declared denial or trivialization of the Holocaust a crime punishable by up to three years imprisonment, in February 2010.[173]

wikipedia

jamest · **#17** by **jamest** » Jan 21, 2012 2:00 am

LucidFlight wrote:
jamest wrote:Fuck me, PC gone mad.

This applies for all hate speech, then. Yes?

Hate speech? Is being able to consider the possibility that the holocaust didn't happen, a hate speech? Is being able to consider the possibility that scientists know fuck all about metaphysics, a hate speech? What about the possibility that the German government know fuck all about freedom and the importance of individuals having the capacity to think of anything to its full extent - is that a hate speech?

There's nothing hateful in being allowed the freedom to discover the truth for oneself, rather than having it shoved down your throat.

Mick · **#18** by **Mick** » Jan 21, 2012 2:02 am

Regina wrote:You are confusing denial with talking about it in history lessons. Or anywhere else, for that matter.

The discussion in this case is whether the holocaust occurred. If we are not free to deny it, I can't see how we're free to discuss it.

jamest · **#19** by **jamest** » Jan 21, 2012 2:10 am

Regina wrote:
jamest wrote:
Regina wrote:
jamest wrote:
I'm sure that anyone in Germany prohibited to talk about anything but the facts will be reassured by your words. I'm just glad that I'm not a kid living in Germany.

So everything's fine then.

No, nothing is fine when the state tell you that a fact is what they determine it to be and that you're simply not allowed to discuss any alternatives.
The problem here, for the hard of hearing, is not that of holocaust denial, but of the denial of one's freedom to think for oneself.
Fuck me, PC gone mad.

Yep. We live in a dictatorship. You too, if the UK doesn't leave the EU soon.
Holocaust denial is explicitly or implicitly illegal in 16 countries: Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Hungary, Israel, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, and Switzerland.[171] The European Union's Framework decision on Racism and Xenophobia states that denying or grossly trivialising "crimes of genocide" should be made "punishable in all EU Member States".[172] Slovakia criminalized denial of fascist crimes in general in late 2001; in May 2005, the term "Holocaust" was explicitly adopted by the penal code and in 2009, it became illegal to deny any act regarded by an international criminal court as genocide. The Parliament of Hungary adopted the most recent legislation, which declared denial or trivialization of the Holocaust a crime punishable by up to three years imprisonment, in February 2010.[173]

wikipedia

Adding a list of idiotic states to the German one, doesn't help your case. What's wrong is wrong, regardless of the majority who don't understand that. This applies now as it did in the 1940's.

LucidFlight · **#20** by **LucidFlight** » Jan 21, 2012 2:11 am

jamest wrote:
LucidFlight wrote:
jamest wrote:Fuck me, PC gone mad.

This applies for all hate speech, then. Yes?

Hate speech? Is being able to consider the possibility that the holocaust didn't happen, a hate speech? Is being able to consider the possibility the scientists know fuck all about metaphysics, a hate speech? What about the possibility that the German government know fuck all about freedom and the importance of individuals having the capacity to think of anything to its full extent - is that a hate speech?

There's nothing hateful in being allowed the freedom to discover the truth for oneself, rather than having it shoved down your throat.

Sure, you're free to discuss and discover. Just don't publicly go out of your way to deny an act of genocide happened. It might be seen as form of inciting hate. Apparently, there is a strong enough case for this for there to be a law about it.

I'm not so sure people can incite such hatred through the discussion of metaphysics.