Finding Merlin...

...and Arthur

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Finding Merlin...

 
 

Finding Merlin...

#1  Postby MacIver » Sep 26, 2011 3:06 am

I got this book from the library a week ago and I've been ploughing through it.

It's an interesting piece that states that the fictional characters of Arthur Pendragon and Merlin were originally based on pagan pre-Christian Celtic Brits who lived in southern Scotland and made names for themselves fighting the invading Angles in the late 6th century. Merlin, on who this book concentrates was apparently a druid, and thus the author has had to sift through 1500 years of Christian propaganda to discern the truth. This along with the fact there are precious few historical records of the British Isles between the departure of the Roman legions and the rise of the Church means much of the work is supposition. But that doesn't detract from the theory's interest.

Much is made by the author of the rise of Christianity and its attempts to eradicate the 'old ways' from history. One example of this is the forcing of historians of the time to use code words such as 'bard' in place of 'druid' or 'pagan'. I haven't finished the book yet but it seems he is championing Merlin as one of the last propagators of the 'old way', an intellectual who fought against the anti-intellectualism of the early Celtic Church and in particular fought against Saint Mungo, the patron-saint of Glasgow.

Worthy theory or romantic fiction? :think:
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Re: Finding Merlin...

#2  Postby Zwaarddijk » Sep 26, 2011 9:02 am

It looks fairly romantic fiction-like.

Might be an interesting read, though.
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Re: Finding Merlin...

#3  Postby chairman bill » Sep 26, 2011 10:47 am

Merlin is a fascinating character, and I'm a bit of a fan of Arthurian legends, with about 1001 books on the subject. You might find Nikolai Tolstoy's The Quest for Merlin an interesting addition to your reading.

Have you seen the Disney film, The Sword in the Stone? There's a sequence in which Arthur 'shape-shifts', becoming a squirrel, and one where Merlin battles a witch, both shifting into other beings, such as dragons, hens & stuff. What's interesting is that similar things occur in the Mabinogian (a collection of ancient Welsh tales), and are common features of shamanic peoples, with shamans apparently taking on animal forms. Whoever wrote those bits for the Disney film was certainly au fait with some wider literature on the subject. The point is, Merlin certainly appears to be a Druid character.

Recent tradition has three grades of Druid, Bard & Ovate. Whether these are interchangeable terms, or really do signify different roles, we don't actually know, but they are undoubtedly linked. In Ireland, the fili are referred to as maybe cognate with Druid, and certainly druids were said to spend twenty years studying 'poetry' - fili means both poet & seer. Whether they are druids, or one of the other classes (bards - poets, or ovates - seers) referred to , I don't know. They certainly practised well into the christian era in Ireland, and the Bardic Schools persisted for centuries. There's less than 100 years between the suppression of the Irish Bardic Colleges & the establishment of similar in Scotland in the 17th century, followed by the whole 'modern' Druid revival in the late 18th.

Druids do seem to have incorporated roles of philosophers, law-makers & adjudicators, bearers of history & tradition, seers, magicians, poets & 'natural scientists'. In that sense, they were an intellectual elite, and some serious intellectual arguments must have occurred between them & the proponents of the new religion.
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Re: Finding Merlin...

#4  Postby Kaleid » Sep 26, 2011 3:42 pm

I'm going to check out MacIver's book, I haven't heard of the idea of Scottish origin before. As has been mentioned though, it's very difficult to find any historical records, and much is supposition. In that sense, surely there's a very thin line between those books that set out to investigate and those that merely tell a story? One of the first books I read managed to tell the tale as a romantic fiction (The Great Captains by Henry Treece) yet still managed to present some possible origins for details like Merddin, the Table Round and the land of Golden Apple Trees (Avalon).
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Re: Finding Merlin...

#5  Postby Doubtdispelled » Sep 26, 2011 4:02 pm

:coffee:
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Re: Finding Merlin...

#6  Postby Clive Durdle » Sep 26, 2011 4:14 pm

Arthur and Jesus. Were either historical?

http://www.pbs.org/mythsandheroes/
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Re: Finding Merlin...

#7  Postby chairman bill » Sep 26, 2011 4:18 pm

Jesus only appears in one book of myths. Arthur is a character in English, Cornish, Welsh, Scottish, and Breton folktales & myths. You do the maths.
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Re: Finding Merlin...

#8  Postby Zwaarddijk » Sep 26, 2011 5:22 pm

chairman bill wrote:Jesus only appears in one book of myths. Arthur is a character in English, Cornish, Welsh, Scottish, and Breton folktales & myths. You do the maths.


Actually, Jesus appears in a bundle of books of myths. He was, for some time, a mainstay of folk tales in a bunch of communities around the mediterranean. The fact that a subset thereof have been published in a compilation doesn't reduce it to "one book". If I compiled the English, Cornish, Welsh etc folktales and myths into one book, would that level the playing field in your opinion?
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Re: Finding Merlin...

#9  Postby chairman bill » Sep 26, 2011 5:35 pm

OK. So if Jesus is in more books of myths, he's more mythical that Arthur, therefore Arthur is more real. Obvious really.
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Re: Finding Merlin...

#10  Postby Zwaarddijk » Sep 26, 2011 5:57 pm

chairman bill wrote:OK. So if Jesus is in more books of myths, he's more mythical that Arthur, therefore Arthur is more real. Obvious really.


...

:|
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Re: Finding Merlin...

#11  Postby AndreD » Sep 27, 2011 10:20 pm

I'd be a bit wary of the book. The problem is that there is virtually nothing known of the druids, apart from a few descriptions by the classical authors. Linking them to literary and semi-historical figures would therefore seem to me to be quite a stretch.
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