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jamest wrote:Is it possible to write completely objective history? Perhaps I should have asked that in the philosophy forum.

jamest wrote:Is it possible to write completely objective history? Perhaps I should have asked that in the philosophy forum.






jamest wrote:I think that the problem with writing objective history, is that history has been 'constructed' by humans... and so what has happened has happened primarily because of subjective opinions and emotions. Therefore, one cannot begin to comprehensively write about such things without trying to get into the heads & hearts of the history makers.
jamest wrote:Trying to explain human activity cannot be scientific, then, in the sense that there's no 'order' to the way that we bahave as individuals and/or groups.
jamest wrote:The best historians are the ones which try to convey the humanity inherent within events, imo. They bring it all to life and make it relevant for you, by enabling oneself to relate to times which seem alien to our own. Recorded histroy has seen alot of change, but not in human nature, I guess.

Tracer Tong wrote:jamest wrote:I think that the problem with writing objective history, is that history has been 'constructed' by humans... and so what has happened has happened primarily because of subjective opinions and emotions. Therefore, one cannot begin to comprehensively write about such things without trying to get into the heads & hearts of the history makers.
I think this is a leap. History is at least partly made by people, some of whom are often impelled by subjective preference and emotion, but this needn't mean that we must engage in some sort of psychoanalysis of them in order to understand the past.
I do not, for instance, need to ever know what Tiberius and Gaius Gracchus were feeling during their lifetimes in order to know their reforms and to apprehend these reforms' significance.
jamest wrote:Trying to explain human activity cannot be scientific, then, in the sense that there's no 'order' to the way that we bahave as individuals and/or groups.
I think sociologists and psychologists may have a thing or two to say about this.
jamest wrote:The best historians are the ones which try to convey the humanity inherent within events, imo. They bring it all to life and make it relevant for you, by enabling oneself to relate to times which seem alien to our own. Recorded histroy has seen alot of change, but not in human nature, I guess.
I regard this as a very dangerous attitude, especially for pre-modern history. An Athenian citizen of the Classical period has almost incomprehensibly little in common with you. His experiences are not in the least relevant to yours and never will be. The very best you can hope for is a dim understanding of the society in which he lived and an approximation of the culture in which he was participant, and even that is exceedingly ambitious. I also find the idea of an immutable human spirit quite fanciful.
I also find the idea of an immutable human spirit quite fanciful.

jamest wrote:History is about humanity, so how is it possible to understand the past without understanding the mindsets of past generations?
jamest wrote:How can we relate to events 2000 years ago, for instance, if we don't comprehend the thoughts & feelings of those who participated in such events?
jamest wrote:To leave out the human element of any historical account is to leave out the reasons for those events.
Others again say that a certain Spurius Postumius was to blame. He was of the same age as Tiberius, and a rival of his in reputation as an advocate; and when Tiberius came back from his campaign and found that his rival had far outstripped him in reputation and influence and was an object of public admiration, he determined, as it would seem, to outdo him by engaging in a bold political measure which would arouse great expectations among the people.
But his brother Caius [Gaius], in a certain pamphlet,1 has written that as Tiberius was passing through Tuscany on his way to Numantia, and observed the dearth of inhabitants in the country, and that those who tilled its soil or tended its flocks there were imported barbarian slaves, he then first conceived the public policy which was the cause of countless ills to the two brothers. However, the energy and ambition of Tiberius were most of all kindled by the people themselves, who posted writings on porticoes, house-walls, and monuments, calling upon him to recover for the poor the public land.
jamest wrote:Further, you could only judge the significance of those reforms in the light of contemporary experience.
jamest wrote:Imagine that the year is 3011 and we're having the same discussion. Racism is now totally obsolete (let's assume), yet you're trying to tell me that you don't need to understand the thoughts and feelings behind the [past] events that have shaped our present [31st century] existence. Sufficient for you [and your readers] is to know that we were once racist, but not now. Yet, how does that explain how our own history evolved? It doesn't, because without trying to explain how and why people from the past held racist views, your own account of history lacks pertinent detail and prevents present [31st century] readers from immersing themselves into the history which you are claiming to be an expert about.
jamest wrote:Perhaps, but sociology/psychology is not a truly objective science.
jamest wrote:Tracer Tong wrote:I regard this as a very dangerous attitude, especially for pre-modern history. An Athenian citizen of the Classical period has almost incomprehensibly little in common with you. His experiences are not in the least relevant to yours and never will be. The very best you can hope for is a dim understanding of the society in which he lived and an approximation of the culture in which he was participant, and even that is exceedingly ambitious. I also find the idea of an immutable human spirit quite fanciful.
You make my point for me. My experiences are totally different to those of my forefathers. Therefore, I can only relate to those experiences if empathy allows.
jamest wrote:I think that experience teaches us alot, which has the knock-on effect of changing what we think & feel; but how we think & feel is something which connects all generations of recorded history. This is why I think empathy has a pivotal role to play in accounting for our history.

Tracer Tong wrote:jamest wrote:History is about humanity, so how is it possible to understand the past without understanding the mindsets of past generations?
This is something rather different, since you here seem to be referring to zeitgeists rather than the emotions and preferences of individuals. I suggest you clarify your thoughts.
jamest wrote:How can we relate to events 2000 years ago, for instance, if we don't comprehend the thoughts & feelings of those who participated in such events?
See above. I consider trying to "relate" to events millennia ago inherently stupid.
jamest wrote:To leave out the human element of any historical account is to leave out the reasons for those events.
What is "the human element"?
So perhaps Tiberius was jealous, disgusted or moved, and it is this that resulted in his risky attempts at social reform. I don't really care. I'm much more interested in the structural and supra-individual causes of the brothers' legislation, the concept of which was alien to Plutarch. This is history proper: looking beyond the often irrelevant personalities of historical figures, with which ancient writers are usually preoccupied, to the real stuff of history. If Thucydides can manage it, I'm sure we can also.
I have not said that I am disinterested in causal analyses of historical phenomena. I've merely registered my disdain for the view that proper historical explanation consists in knowing whether the dramatis personae to which we are referring liked "to go riding or take walks...that ended with a sharp sprint and some jumping" (Suetonius. Divus Augustus. 83).
jamest wrote:Perhaps, but sociology/psychology is not a truly objective science.
I don't know what is meant by "objective".
The point is that no matter how hard you try, you will never empathise with an Athenian citizen of the Classical period-among almost everyone else in history.


jamest wrote:
Why? Do you lack the faculty of imagination? This faculty is instrumental in the Theory of Mind, of course, whereby effective social interaction and altruism is facilitated. The ability to empathise with how others might be thinking and feeling is an innate quality inherent within nearly everyone, to various degrees. I'm suggesting, then, that a 'good historian' would be somebody attributed with a highly empathic nature, enabled to understand what it was like to be a particular individual within a particular environment. You're talking as though none of us have this ability, whereas my studies have showed that it even exists within animals such as chimps to some degree.
jamest wrote:Tracer Tong wrote:So perhaps Tiberius was jealous, disgusted or moved, and it is this that resulted in his risky attempts at social reform. I don't really care. I'm much more interested in the structural and supra-individual causes of the brothers' legislation, the concept of which was alien to Plutarch. This is history proper: looking beyond the often irrelevant personalities of historical figures, with which ancient writers are usually preoccupied, to the real stuff of history. If Thucydides can manage it, I'm sure we can also.
I'm saying that both these aspects [of history] make for good history. I'm not saying that history should be devoid of actual factual content.
jamest wrote:Tracer Tong wrote:I have not said that I am disinterested in causal analyses of historical phenomena. I've merely registered my disdain for the view that proper historical explanation consists in knowing whether the dramatis personae to which we are referring liked "to go riding or take walks...that ended with a sharp sprint and some jumping" (Suetonius. Divus Augustus. 83).
Well, I'm certainly not interested in the nose-picking habits of Julius Caesar, but to have a glimpse into his mind is every bit as important to me in understanding Roman history as is having an awareness of his dictums and their effects.
jamest wrote:
Ultimately, the closer we come to narrating the actual reasons/causes for any event, the closer we come to objectively reporting it. However, since human mentality is pivotal to forging human history, this means that having a high degree of empathy is a must for narrating the actual causes of human history. For instance, a comprehensive account of why 9/11 happened, could only come from somebody who was aware of the thoughts & feelings of those behind it. Without said account, we're left with no reason for 9/11 - just the fact that it happened. This is what I class as 'dry' history - devoid of meaning and interest to me because I cannot relate to it. In a 1000 years, historians who cannot relate to the thoughts and the feelings of the 9/11 terrorists (nor their victims), will not sell many books. Only those historians who bring past events to present minds are worthy of my dollars, imo.
jamest wrote:Indeed, it is facts and imagination which enable many people to write compelling fiction about our future. Actually, some writers are so good that they are able to immerse their readers/viewers into complete fantasy. Lord of the Rings, anyone? Star Trek? Alice in Wonderland? The Wizzard of Oz?
... How do you imagine that fiction/fantasy can be so compelling? Because, our ability to empaphise with the characters therein - in spite of their alien [to us] environments - enables us to relate to the story. You really need to give this serious consideration, since if our ability to write a good fiction/future is contingent upon an empathic ability [as well as fact], then so too is our ability to write a good non-fiction about the past.
For instance, a comprehensive account of why 9/11 happened, could only come from somebody who was aware of the thoughts & feelings of those behind it. Without said account, we're left with no reason for 9/11 - just the fact that it happened.

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