The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

Genetic studies on Medieval population

Discussion and analysis of past events and their causes and effects.

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Re: The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

#21  Postby Spearthrower » Dec 05, 2022 1:46 pm

What the paper actually shows:

It's one of those truly difficult things to divine in a scientific paper, one must know the secret ways, count the appropriate number of birds flying across the sky, and chant the magical words...

Entirely Apposite to the Debunking Forum wrote:It's written in the fucking title


https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 7422013782

The Title of the Cited Paper wrote:Genome-wide data from medieval German Jews show that the Ashkenazi founder event pre-dated the 14th century


The argument actually offered by the paper, the argument that the writers believe they can defend through the weight of evidence presented, is that the founder event happened prior to the 14th century.

The sneaky buggers only then went and hid more details about that idea in the 'summary' right at the top of the page, directly under the title.

We report genome-wide data from 33 Ashkenazi Jews (AJ), dated to the 14th century, obtained following a salvage excavation at the medieval Jewish cemetery of Erfurt, Germany. The Erfurt individuals are genetically similar to modern AJ, but they show more variability in Eastern European-related ancestry than modern AJ. A third of the Erfurt individuals carried a mitochondrial lineage common in modern AJ and eight carried pathogenic variants known to affect AJ today. These observations, together with high levels of runs of homozygosity, suggest that the Erfurt community had already experienced the major reduction in size that affected modern AJ. The Erfurt bottleneck was more severe, implying substructure in medieval AJ. Overall, our results suggest that the AJ founder event and the acquisition of the main sources of ancestry pre-dated the 14th century and highlight late medieval genetic heterogeneity no longer present in modern AJ.


It's almost as if that contains highly pertinent information that might possibly be of specific relevance to any of the claims being made here... honest claims, made in good faith, I mean.

If only we were capable of reading the actual link and paper for ourselves! :roll:
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Re: The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

#22  Postby Wortfish » Dec 05, 2022 1:48 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
Wortfish wrote:Some Near Eastern ancestry is probably there, but it is unclear from where exactly.


Well, from the near East. Remind me of what modern nations might be described as being in the near East?

https://www.worldhistory.org/Near_East/


I meant where in the Near East: The Levant? Egypt? Anatolia? Mesopotamia? Persia?

Anyway, the data from this study aligns with that of a previous study: The origin of Eastern European Jews revealed by autosomal, sex chromosomal and mtDNA polymorphisms https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2964539/

EEJ are closer to Italians in particular and to Europeans in general than to the other Jewish populations. The similarity of EEJ to Italians and Europeans is also supported by the X chromosomal haplogroups......The close genetic resemblance to Italians accords with the historical presumption that Ashkenazi Jews started their migrations across Europe in Italy and with historical evidence that conversion to Judaism was common in ancient Rome.
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Re: The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

#23  Postby Spearthrower » Dec 05, 2022 1:50 pm

What's a 'founder effect' Wortfish?

You can go look it up and report it back as if you know what it means: I won't mind.

But it's going to make you look very silly if you pretend to know what it means and still want to maintain your 'argument'.
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Re: The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

#24  Postby Spearthrower » Dec 05, 2022 2:17 pm

Wortfish wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:The paper you're citing does not support confident conclusions.

Despite this being underlined for you so you can't miss it, you still insist that you are correct.


... all the evidence points in one direction. I have looked at the data, and it unmistakably shows that the Jews of Erfurt were mostly Italian in origin with a substantial Eurasian contribution. Some Near Eastern ancestry is probably there, but it is unclear from where exactly.



https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 7422013782

We caution that the specific identity of the source populations that we inferred, as well as the admixture proportions, should not be considered precise. This is due to the multiple Southern European populations that fit the EAJ data, as well as our reliance on modern populations as a proxy of the true ancestral sources. The levels of Middle Eastern ancestry in Italy were historically variable (Aneli et al., 2021; Antonio et al., 2019; De Angelis et al., 2021; Posth et al., 2021; Raveane et al., 2019), and Middle Eastern populations have also experienced demographic changes in the past two millennia, particularly African admixture (Moorjani et al., 2011) (Data S1, section 16). Under the extensive set of models we studied, the ME ancestry in EAJ is estimated in the range 19%–43% and the Mediterranean European ancestry in the range 37%–65%. However, the true ancestry proportions could be higher or lower than implied by these ranges (Data S1, section 16). Our results therefore should only be interpreted to suggest that AJ ancestral sources have links to populations living in Mediterranean Europe and the Middle East today.


This is exactly why people are always asked to cite papers, and why Creationists usually go far out of their way to avoid it.
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Re: The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

#25  Postby Wortfish » Dec 05, 2022 3:06 pm

Spearthrower wrote:[
This is exactly why people are always asked to cite papers, and why Creationists usually go far out of their way to avoid it.


You are confusing the natural caution of the researchers with the actual genetic data. Whatever "Middle Eastern ancestry" is present among AJs can easily be explained by the fact that Italians themselves have such ancestry, especially in the South.

Let me just go through the Y-chromosomal data for which 10 persons had enough SNPs to categorize by haplogroup:

4: R1b
3: J2
1: J1
1: E1b
1: T

R1b is the dominant haplogroup for most western europeans. J2 is found amongst people in Southern Europe and the Near East. T is a rare haplogroup that is found in Italy and Iran but also in the Levant to a lesser extent. J1 and E1b are common the Levant, and rare in most of Europe, but the former is found at very high levels in the Caucasus and the latter amongst Greeks. So, even though it is still a small sample, it reflects a population that clearly has ancestry mostly from Europe and not from the Levant. This is what you would have expected had the Erfurt Jews been descended from the ancient Judaeans:

4: J1
3: Elb
1: J2
1: G2
1: R1b
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Re: The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

#26  Postby Spearthrower » Dec 05, 2022 3:07 pm

Well, you're clearly lying.


Spearthrower wrote:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 7422013782

We caution that the specific identity of the source populations that we inferred, as well as the admixture proportions, should not be considered precise. This is due to the multiple Southern European populations that fit the EAJ data, as well as our reliance on modern populations as a proxy of the true ancestral sources. The levels of Middle Eastern ancestry in Italy were historically variable (Aneli et al., 2021; Antonio et al., 2019; De Angelis et al., 2021; Posth et al., 2021; Raveane et al., 2019), and Middle Eastern populations have also experienced demographic changes in the past two millennia, particularly African admixture (Moorjani et al., 2011) (Data S1, section 16). Under the extensive set of models we studied, the ME ancestry in EAJ is estimated in the range 19%–43% and the Mediterranean European ancestry in the range 37%–65%. However, the true ancestry proportions could be higher or lower than implied by these ranges (Data S1, section 16). Our results therefore should only be interpreted to suggest that AJ ancestral sources have links to populations living in Mediterranean Europe and the Middle East today.



Your lie: non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews.

What they state clearly: this data cannot be used to identify the source population of the Ashkenazi Jews.

It's not just a lie, it's a brazen lie because you went through the sham of citing a paper as if it supports you when the writers of the paper explicitly state that their data cannot be used in the way you're trying to use it for the list of reasons given.

Obviously, you lying is not something I imagine the website will do anything about despite having proscriptions against misrepresenting information, but were I to call you a liar, I would receive warnings for it.

So I will just point out that you are very clearly lying. Not that you are a liar, which is someone incapable of telling the truth, merely lying in this instance, along with the many other instances of lying I've seen you engage in, almost as if there's a pattern of lying that could be summarized with application of a noun.

It's hard to know whether this is something that Creationism does to peoples' brains, or whether it's just that people lacking intellectual and moral integrity are naturally drawn to Creationism.
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Re: The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

#27  Postby The_Metatron » Dec 05, 2022 3:15 pm

Wortfish wrote:
[Reveal] Spoiler:
Spearthrower wrote:The paper you're citing does not support confident conclusions.

Despite this being underlined for you so you can't miss it, you still insist that you are correct.

You are confused by the fact that in science all results are presented as tentative and provisional. But all the evidence points in one direction. I have looked at the data, and it unmistakably shows that the Jews of Erfurt were mostly Italian in origin with a substantial Eurasian contribution. Some Near Eastern ancestry is probably there, but it is unclear from where exactly.

It would also make me wonder why the strange interest in the origin of Jews - I mean, history provides ample examples of Christians being manically vicious twerps to Jews. Perhaps that's unfair of me to link you to that, but you don't seem interested for purely academic reasons, else you wouldn't be claiming a paper that goes out of its way to talk about competing 'plausible models' supports such confident contentions. And you've not taken the opportunity yet to explain what it is that does interest you here.

The origins of Ashkenazi Jews is a subject of considerable debate. 20 years ago, researchers claimed that they had found genetic evidence that AJs were blood brothers with Arabs, and so were likely descended from Judaeans who migrated out of Palestine. However, as more studies were conducted, it became clear this was a false interpretation and that AJs likely had origins within Europe. This paper is the latest in overturning the mythological claim that Jews are really Judaeans in exile.
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You keep dodging the question put to you: Why do you care?
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Re: The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

#28  Postby Wortfish » Dec 05, 2022 4:32 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
It's not just a lie, it's a brazen lie because you went through the sham of citing a paper as if it supports you when the writers of the paper explicitly state that their data cannot be used in the way you're trying to use it for the list of reasons given.

Obviously, you lying is not something I imagine the website will do anything about despite having proscriptions against misrepresenting information, but were I to call you a liar, I would receive warnings for it.

So I will just point out that you are very clearly lying. Not that you are a liar, which is someone incapable of telling the truth, merely lying in this instance, along with the many other instances of lying I've seen you engage in, almost as if there's a pattern of lying that could be summarized with application of a noun.


You are mouthing off things which you don't understand: https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1 ... 2-mmc1.pdf

Modern Italians themselves have had much higher proportions of ME admixture since at least European Imperial
Roman times
and this is especially the case in modern Southern Italy.....AJ may have no ancestry at all from the ancient Levant. This could be the case if an unsampled Italian population (with more Levantine-like admixture than in modern South-Italians) is the source of all the Levantine-like ancestry seen in AJ...Co-analysis of ancient DNA data from the Middle East and the Italian peninsula fromAntiquity and the early Medieval period would make it possible to distinguish them


What they mean is that Italians have ME ancestry, and that to determine if the AJs from Erfurt got their "Levantine-like" genes from Italains with ME ancestry, or directly from Levantines, would require further analysis using ancient/medieval DNA. In any case, the data - which you refuse to examine/discuss - shows clearly that Southern and Eastern European DNA make up most of the ancestry of the Jews from Erfurt. There is even evidence of some East Asian ancestry on the mitochondrial side.
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Re: The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

#29  Postby Spearthrower » Dec 05, 2022 4:49 pm

Wortfish wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
It's not just a lie, it's a brazen lie because you went through the sham of citing a paper as if it supports you when the writers of the paper explicitly state that their data cannot be used in the way you're trying to use it for the list of reasons given.

Obviously, you lying is not something I imagine the website will do anything about despite having proscriptions against misrepresenting information, but were I to call you a liar, I would receive warnings for it.

So I will just point out that you are very clearly lying. Not that you are a liar, which is someone incapable of telling the truth, merely lying in this instance, along with the many other instances of lying I've seen you engage in, almost as if there's a pattern of lying that could be summarized with application of a noun.


You are mouthing off things which you don't understand: https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1 ... 2-mmc1.pdf

Modern Italians themselves have had much higher proportions of ME admixture since at least European Imperial
Roman times
and this is especially the case in modern Southern Italy.....AJ may have no ancestry at all from the ancient Levant. This could be the case if an unsampled Italian population (with more Levantine-like admixture than in modern South-Italians) is the source of all the Levantine-like ancestry seen in AJ...Co-analysis of ancient DNA data from the Middle East and the Italian peninsula fromAntiquity and the early Medieval period would make it possible to distinguish them


What they mean is that Italians have ME ancestry, and that to determine if the AJs from Erfurt got their "Levantine-like" genes from Italains with ME ancestry, or directly from Levantines, would require further analysis using ancient/medieval DNA. In any case, the data - which you refuse to examine/discuss - shows clearly that Southern and Eastern European DNA make up most of the ancestry of the Jews from Erfurt. There is even evidence of some East Asian ancestry on the mitochondrial side.



Your lying has been exposed from the very paper you cited.

The paper you are attempting to use expressly states that the data in the paper cannot be used in the way you're attempting to use it... and even though it's written there clearly, and I've quoted it above, you're still going with the 'you just don't understand'.


Spearthrower wrote:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 7422013782

We caution that the specific identity of the source populations that we inferred, as well as the admixture proportions, should not be considered precise. This is due to the multiple Southern European populations that fit the EAJ data, as well as our reliance on modern populations as a proxy of the true ancestral sources. The levels of Middle Eastern ancestry in Italy were historically variable (Aneli et al., 2021; Antonio et al., 2019; De Angelis et al., 2021; Posth et al., 2021; Raveane et al., 2019), and Middle Eastern populations have also experienced demographic changes in the past two millennia, particularly African admixture (Moorjani et al., 2011) (Data S1, section 16). Under the extensive set of models we studied, the ME ancestry in EAJ is estimated in the range 19%–43% and the Mediterranean European ancestry in the range 37%–65%. However, the true ancestry proportions could be higher or lower than implied by these ranges (Data S1, section 16). Our results therefore should only be interpreted to suggest that AJ ancestral sources have links to populations living in Mediterranean Europe and the Middle East today.



Your lie: non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews.

What they state clearly: this data cannot be used to identify the source population of the Ashkenazi Jews..
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Re: The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

#30  Postby Spearthrower » Dec 05, 2022 4:58 pm

i) the specific identify of the source populations is not precise
ii) the admixture proportions are not precise
iii) multiple populations fit the data set
iv) middle Eastern ancestry was historically variable
v) modern populations were used, not ancient ones
vi) demographic changes across 2000 years make using modern population data as a proxy complicated

Consequently, the proportions of ancestry could be out by extremely large factors that they cannot rule out.

Thus, the data in this paper should only be interpreted within the paradigm of this Ashkenazi Jewish group (i.e. the sample set of 30 odd individuals) links to contemporary populations, not past ones.

You can't keep yammering on about how I am the one not understanding when your thread title is explicitly false and cannot be determined by the data in this paper even if all the variables were corrected for.

It's utter bullshit, and you're not just lying brazenly, but you're stupidly trying to gaslight me and pretend I am just not getting it despite the fact that what you are contending is directly contradictory to what the authors wrote, and despite the fact that I immediately noticed all the information you ignored to cherrypick the bits you fancied.

White supremacism or just age-old Christian anti-semitism?
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Re: The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

#31  Postby Spearthrower » Dec 05, 2022 5:07 pm

And of course, you didn't answer the question about the founder effect because you'd expose yourself either way.

Outright lies is where we're at.

The only remaining question is what motivated you to lie in the first instance, and why you're continuing to lie now even when the authors expressly stated that their data cannot be used in the way you have attempted to do so, and they wrote that in the paper you're supposedly relying on.

Stolen concept seems to be your natural state of affairs.
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Re: The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

#32  Postby Wortfish » Dec 05, 2022 6:52 pm

Spearthrower wrote:And of course, you didn't answer the question about the founder effect because you'd expose yourself either way.

Outright lies is where we're at.

The only remaining question is what motivated you to lie in the first instance, and why you're continuing to lie now even when the authors expressly stated that their data cannot be used in the way you have attempted to do so, and they wrote that in the paper you're supposedly relying on.

Stolen concept seems to be your natural state of affairs.


Let's see how others have interpreted the article: https://www.science.org/content/article ... dieval-dna

By comparing the Erfurt genomes with modern and ancient DNA data from many different populations, the researchers were able to peer even further back, to the origins of those scattered European communities. The comparisons suggested the Ashkenazi circa 1350 had a mix of ancestry resembling populations from southern Italy or Sicily today, with components found in modern Eastern Europe and the Middle East mixed in.


Now, if you want to examine the actual genetic data they have presented, rather than just relying on the authors' careful conclusions, I am happy to do so. If you want to just name call and make false accusations, I won't bother responding.
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Re: The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

#33  Postby Wortfish » Dec 05, 2022 6:59 pm

From a 2013 paper on the subject: Did Modern Jews Originate in Italy?
https://www.science.org/content/article ... nate-italy

Modern Jews may traditionally trace their ancestry to the Holy Land, but a new genetic study finds otherwise. A detailed look at thousands of genomes finds that Ashkenazim—who make up roughly 80% of the world's Jews, including 90% of those in America and half of those in Israel—ultimately came not from the Middle East, but from Western Europe, perhaps Italy.
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Re: The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

#34  Postby Wortfish » Dec 05, 2022 8:05 pm

Btw, why am I a "white supremacist" for pointing out that Jews are more likely to be the descendants of European converts than the ancient Judaeans/Israelites? Most Christians subscribe to the Zionist belief that Jews were exiled by the Romans.
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Re: The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

#35  Postby Spearthrower » Dec 06, 2022 2:41 am

Wortfish wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:And of course, you didn't answer the question about the founder effect because you'd expose yourself either way.

Outright lies is where we're at.

The only remaining question is what motivated you to lie in the first instance, and why you're continuing to lie now even when the authors expressly stated that their data cannot be used in the way you have attempted to do so, and they wrote that in the paper you're supposedly relying on.

Stolen concept seems to be your natural state of affairs.


Let's see how others have interpreted the article



Fuck me, what nonsense you come up with.

Written in the paper this thread started with is all the answer needed - no song and dance, no dump another link containing no material support, no further bollocks of any nature required.

Read the article you cited - it's written very very clearly.


We caution that the specific identity of the source populations that we inferred, as well as the admixture proportions, should not be considered precise. This is due to the multiple Southern European populations that fit the EAJ data, as well as our reliance on modern populations as a proxy of the true ancestral sources. The levels of Middle Eastern ancestry in Italy were historically variable (Aneli et al., 2021; Antonio et al., 2019; De Angelis et al., 2021; Posth et al., 2021; Raveane et al., 2019), and Middle Eastern populations have also experienced demographic changes in the past two millennia, particularly African admixture (Moorjani et al., 2011) (Data S1, section 16). Under the extensive set of models we studied, the ME ancestry in EAJ is estimated in the range 19%–43% and the Mediterranean European ancestry in the range 37%–65%. However, the true ancestry proportions could be higher or lower than implied by these ranges (Data S1, section 16). Our results therefore should only be interpreted to suggest that AJ ancestral sources have links to populations living in Mediterranean Europe and the Middle East today.


Unless you also want to claim that the authors are 'confused'?
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Re: The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

#36  Postby Spearthrower » Dec 06, 2022 2:46 am

Wortfish wrote:Btw, why am I a "white supremacist" for pointing out that Jews are more likely to be the descendants of European converts than the ancient Judaeans/Israelites? Most Christians subscribe to the Zionist belief that Jews were exiled by the Romans.



No one said you're a white supremacist.

I asked you whether it was white supremacism or traditional Christian antisemitism motivating your interest here, because it sure ain't academic interest given you clearly didn't even read the paper you cited.

For example, the paper you're citing expressly warns against the conclusion you are, again, trying to claim is evidenced by the paper, but which the authors of that paper say isn't possible to do.

You know, some kind of driving ideology that blinds you to these facts apparently inconvenient to the narrative you're reaching for.
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Re: The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

#37  Postby Spearthrower » Dec 06, 2022 2:53 am

Go read up on founder effect, because that's vital to any understanding of the data discussed in the paper. The authors, of course, know this. Most of the readers of this thread know this. Your evasion of it suggests you also know what the founder effect is and why it's problematic for your contrived story.

Whatever the case is, it remains false to claim that this paper shows ' The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews' - it shows no such thing.
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Re: The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

#38  Postby Spearthrower » Dec 06, 2022 3:34 am

Actually, instead of letting you keep ignoring it, let's put it front and centre.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founder_effect

In population genetics, the founder effect is the loss of genetic variation that occurs when a new population is established by a very small number of individuals from a larger population.

...

As a result of the loss of genetic variation, the new population may be distinctively different, both genotypically and phenotypically, from the parent population from which it is derived.


Image


Every paper and article you've cited contain ample references to discrete population bottlenecks preceding the Erfurt remains, and they all talk of the founder effect with respect to the Erfurt population.

Without detailed genomic evidence of the population from which the Erfurt group descended, we can't tell how genetically similar or distinct they were. They could have been entirely representative of the wider population, or, as is vastly more likely, their DNA would not have been representative of the wider population from which they originated.

We can't tell going backwards because we don't have any genetic data to let us do that (a rather specific point to the discussion, eh?) - the original paper explains this perfectly clearly in standard English, but you appear to have ignored it, not read it, or just don't want to acknowledge it.

Instead for these models they used modern populations, which is why the authors expressly state that the data derived from their analyses cannot be used to identify origins, but rather can only establish what happened consequent to the time of the Erfurt people.

It's written in simple English. I am not confused.


Back to that paper, the one you cited in order to make your claim:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 7422013782

Ashkenazi Jews (AJ) emerged as a distinctive ethno-religious cultural group in the Rhineland in the 10th century (Frishman, 2008; Gladstein and Hammer, 2016). Since then, the AJ population expanded substantially, both geographically, first to Eastern Europe and recently beyond Europe, and in number, reaching about 10 million today (DellaPergola, 2015; Motulsky, 1995). Starting from the early days of human genetics, dozens of pathogenic recessive variants were identified in AJ (Charrow, 2004; Goodman, 1979; Ostrer, 2012), leading to the development of successful pre-conception screening programs (Gross et al., 2008; Kaback et al., 1993). A large fraction of these variants are extremely rare outside AJ and appear on the background of long shared haplotypes (e.g., Frisch et al., 2004; Hamel et al., 2011; Laitman et al., 2013; Raskin et al., 2011), implying that AJ descend from a small set of ancestral founders (Diamond, 1994; Ostrer and Skorecki, 2013; Risch et al., 2003; Slatkin, 2004). The Ashkenazi “founder event” is also evident in four mitochondrial lineages carried by 40% of AJ (Behar et al., 2006; Costa et al., 2013). More recently, studies found high rates of identical-by-descent (IBD) sharing in AJ, that is, nearly identical long haplotypes present in unrelated individuals, a hallmark of founder populations (Atzmon et al., 2010; Carmi et al., 2014a; Gusev et al., 2012; Henn et al., 2012). Quantitative modeling suggested that AJ experienced a sharp reduction in size (a “bottleneck”) in the late Middle Ages and that the (effective) number of founders was in the hundreds (Carmi et al., 2014a; Granot-Hershkovitz et al., 2018; Palamara et al., 2012; Santiago et al., 2020; Tournebize et al., 2022).

The origins of early AJ, as well as the history of admixture events that have shaped their gene pool, are subject to debate (Data S1, section 1). Genetic evidence supports a mixed Middle Eastern (ME) and European (EU) ancestry in AJ. This is based on uniparental markers with origins in either region (Behar et al., 2006, 2017; Costa et al., 2013; Hammer et al., 2000, 2009; Nebel et al., 2001), as well as autosomal studies showing that AJ have ancestry intermediate between ME and EU populations (Atzmon et al., 2010; Behar et al., 2010, 2013; Bray et al., 2010; Carmi et al., 2014a; Granot-Hershkovitz et al., 2018; Guha et al., 2012; Kopelman et al., 2020). These and other autosomal studies also showed that individuals with AJ ancestry are genetically distinguishable from those of other ancestries. Recent modeling suggested that most of the European ancestry in AJ is consistent with Southern European-related sources, and estimated the total proportion of European ancestry in AJ as 50%–70% (Carmi et al., 2014a; Xue et al., 2017; Yardumian and Schurr, 2019). The AJ population is overall highly genetically homogeneous, with no major ancestry differences based on present-day country of residence (Guha et al., 2012; Gusev et al., 2012; Kopelman et al., 2020). However, there are subtle average differences in ancestry between AJ with origins in Eastern vs. Western Europe (Behar et al., 2013; Gladstein and Hammer, 2019; Granot-Hershkovitz et al., 2018) (Data S1, section 1).

Despite the recent progress, open questions remain, including the localization of the founder event, or events, in time and space and the sources and times of the admixture events. Studying the genomes of individuals who lived closer to the time of AJ formation has the potential to shed light on these questions. We present here a DNA study of historical Jews, focusing on AJ from 14th-century Erfurt, Germany. The medieval Erfurt Jewish community existed between the late 11th century to 1454, with a short gap following a 1349 massacre (Weigelt, 2016). We report genome-wide data from 33 individuals whose skeletons were extracted in a salvage excavation. Our results demonstrate that Erfurt Ashkenazi Jews (EAJ) are genetically similar to modern Ashkenazi Jews (MAJ), implying little gene flow into the AJ gene pool since the 14th century. Further analysis demonstrates that EAJ were more genetically heterogeneous than MAJ, with multiple lines of evidence supporting the presence of two subgroups, one of which had higher Eastern European affinity compared to MAJ. The EAJ population shows strong evidence of a recent bottleneck shared with the bottleneck that affected MAJ, as alleles that are highly enriched in MAJ—including mitochondrial lineages and pathogenic variants—are also common in EAJ.



Even laying aside this core point about founder effects (literally the title and point of the study), the text above again directly contradicts your lie.

Genetic evidence supports a mixed Middle Eastern (ME) and European (EU) ancestry in AJ.


Nothing remotely suggests or supports the claim that Ashkenazi Jews do not have ethnic origins shared with other Jews in the Levant. Rather, the study shows how, after multiple population bottlenecks and founder effects, one particular group of Jews migrated from one part of Europe into the HRE and became the population we define today as Ashkenazi Jews, that can be traced back to this point due to the founder effect distinguishing them from their parent population, and thanks to this particular group's cultural practices of endogamy, they retained those distinguishing genes.

No one at all ever suggested that, for example, the Erfurt Jews migrated directly from the Levant to the middle of Germany, similarly, no one ever suggested that Jewish populations couldn't have existed all across the Mediterranean and Middle East for generations accruing local genes from admixture. History already knows through ample evidence that Jews underwent multiple diasporas, multiple population bottlenecks, multiple forced resettlements over a thousand and more years.
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Re: The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

#39  Postby Wortfish » Dec 06, 2022 7:28 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
Even laying aside this core point about founder effects (literally the title and point of the study), the text above again directly contradicts your lie.


The age of the founder effect is a separate part of the study as are the diseases identified.

Genetic evidence supports a mixed Middle Eastern (ME) and European (EU) ancestry in AJ.


The authors do claim that, but the average contribution of ME ancestry is calculated as just 20%

Nothing remotely suggests or supports the claim that Ashkenazi Jews do not have ethnic origins shared with other Jews in the Levant.


You mean other peoples in the Levant. The genetic data consists of some "Levantine-like" ancestry which is actually found in other parts of the Middle East (like Egypt) and which may have been brought to Southern Europe a long time ago.

Rather, the study shows how, after multiple population bottlenecks and founder effects, one particular group of Jews migrated from one part of Europe into the HRE and became the population we define today as Ashkenazi Jews, that can be traced back to this point due to the founder effect distinguishing them from their parent population, and thanks to this particular group's cultural practices of endogamy, they retained those distinguishing genes.


From Italy, not the Levant.

No one at all ever suggested that, for example, the Erfurt Jews migrated directly from the Levant to the middle of Germany, similarly, no one ever suggested that Jewish populations couldn't have existed all across the Mediterranean and Middle East for generations accruing local genes from admixture. History already knows through ample evidence that Jews underwent multiple diasporas, multiple population bottlenecks, multiple forced resettlements over a thousand and more years.


The authors admit the possibility that AJs are mainly descended from Europeans who converted to Judaism.
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Re: The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

#40  Postby Wortfish » Dec 06, 2022 7:31 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
Wortfish wrote:Btw, why am I a "white supremacist" for pointing out that Jews are more likely to be the descendants of European converts than the ancient Judaeans/Israelites? Most Christians subscribe to the Zionist belief that Jews were exiled by the Romans.


No one said you're a white supremacist.

I asked you whether it was white supremacism or traditional Christian antisemitism motivating your interest here, because it sure ain't academic interest given you clearly didn't even read the paper you cited.

For example, the paper you're citing expressly warns against the conclusion you are, again, trying to claim is evidenced by the paper, but which the authors of that paper say isn't possible to do.

You know, some kind of driving ideology that blinds you to these facts apparently inconvenient to the narrative you're reaching for.


I'm not a supremacist nor am I a creationist. It is an ad hominem fallacy, in any case, to attack me for something else that I may or may not believe in. What motivates me is debunking the traditional view that Jews are Judaean in their ancestry.
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