The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

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The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

#1  Postby Wortfish » Dec 03, 2022 5:27 pm

Genome-wide data from medieval German Jews show that the Ashkenazi founder event pre-dated the 14th century: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 7422013782

Multiple models with South-Italians were plausible, which would be consistent with historical models pointing to the Italian peninsula as the source for the AJ population. The mean admixture proportions were 65% South Italy, 19% ME, and 16% East-EU
Last edited by Wortfish on Dec 04, 2022 1:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

#2  Postby Spearthrower » Dec 03, 2022 5:39 pm

When everything is large and bolded, nothing is large and bolded.

What specifically was of interest here to you?
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Re: The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

#3  Postby Wortfish » Dec 03, 2022 6:28 pm

Spearthrower wrote:When everything is large and bolded, nothing is large and bolded.

What specifically was of interest here to you?


The fact that the researchers state that AJs have their origins in Italians and not in Levantines.
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Re: The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

#4  Postby Spearthrower » Dec 03, 2022 7:37 pm

Wortfish wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:When everything is large and bolded, nothing is large and bolded.

What specifically was of interest here to you?


The fact that the researchers state that AJs have their origins in Italians and not in Levantines.



I see the word 'plausible' - is that the word you think lends certainty?

Anyway, your link doesn't work for me, so I only have your cited paragraph to read, and I can't seem to locate it in the journal either.
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Re: The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

#5  Postby Cito di Pense » Dec 03, 2022 8:41 pm

Wortfish wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:When everything is large and bolded, nothing is large and bolded.

What specifically was of interest here to you?


The fact that the researchers state that AJs have their origins in Italians and not in Levantines.


Quick question, Wortfish, using a word you quoted: What does admixture denote? We wouldn't call Italians mixing with Italians a mixture, would we? Well, we could, but then I guess we're all Ashkenazi Jews.
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Re: The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

#6  Postby Wortfish » Dec 04, 2022 1:57 am

Spearthrower wrote:
Wortfish wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:When everything is large and bolded, nothing is large and bolded.

What specifically was of interest here to you?


The fact that the researchers state that AJs have their origins in Italians and not in Levantines.



I see the word 'plausible' - is that the word you think lends certainty?

Anyway, your link doesn't work for me, so I only have your cited paragraph to read, and I can't seem to locate it in the journal either.


Fixed the link. You can read it now.
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Re: The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

#7  Postby The_Metatron » Dec 04, 2022 2:01 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
Wortfish wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:When everything is large and bolded, nothing is large and bolded.

What specifically was of interest here to you?

The fact that the researchers state that AJs have their origins in Italians and not in Levantines.

Quick question, Wortfish, using a word you quoted: What does admixture denote? We wouldn't call Italians mixing with Italians a mixture, would we? Well, we could, but then I guess we're all Ashkenazi Jews.

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Re: The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

#8  Postby Spearthrower » Dec 04, 2022 4:01 am

I am still at a bit of a loss with this thread. Is it just for the pure academic joy of the discovery, or is there some other point at interest here?
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Re: The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

#9  Postby Wortfish » Dec 04, 2022 1:31 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
Wortfish wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:When everything is large and bolded, nothing is large and bolded.

What specifically was of interest here to you?


The fact that the researchers state that AJs have their origins in Italians and not in Levantines.


Quick question, Wortfish, using a word you quoted: What does admixture denote? We wouldn't call Italians mixing with Italians a mixture, would we? Well, we could, but then I guess we're all Ashkenazi Jews.


The researchers tried to find what genetic admixture comported best with the DNA of the medieval samples using modern DNA. Of course, we are all a mix of things. Most Europeans have Near Eastern ancestry due to the spread of farmers.
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Re: The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

#10  Postby Wortfish » Dec 04, 2022 1:35 pm

Spearthrower wrote:I am still at a bit of a loss with this thread. Is it just for the pure academic joy of the discovery, or is there some other point at interest here?


It is just one town in Germany, but it implies that Ashkenazim have an Italian origin, not a Levantine one. In other words, Jews are mostly likely descended from converts to Judaism rather than being simply Israelites living in exile (as Zionist proponents and evangelical Christians would have us all believe): https://twitter.com/jordixiol/status/15 ... 7452500993
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Re: The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

#11  Postby Spearthrower » Dec 04, 2022 1:54 pm

Wortfish wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:I am still at a bit of a loss with this thread. Is it just for the pure academic joy of the discovery, or is there some other point at interest here?


It is just one town in Germany, but it implies that Ashkenazim have an Italian origin, not a Levantine one. In other words, Jews are mostly likely descended from converts to Judaism rather than being simply Israelites living in exile (as Zionist proponents and evangelical Christians would have us all believe): https://twitter.com/jordixiol/status/15 ... 7452500993



That's not a conclusion you can draw with any level of confidence, not just based on the extremely low sample size, but even the implications of the paper hold no sound justification for such a synopsis, which then still provokes my confusion with your interest in this specific topic.
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Re: The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

#12  Postby Wortfish » Dec 04, 2022 2:25 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
That's not a conclusion you can draw with any level of confidence, not just based on the extremely low sample size, but even the implications of the paper hold no sound justification for such a synopsis, which then still provokes my confusion with your interest in this specific topic.


You need to read the Supplementary data: https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1 ... 2-mmc1.pdf

Models with a South-Italian source were more frequently favored by qpAdm (Table S3) and have a plausible historical basis (above). However, these models suggested that only about 20% of EAJ ancestry derived from Middle Eastern sources. This is less than previous estimates based on modern SNP and sequencing data [40, 51]. This may also be interpreted to imply that present-day AJ derive only a small proportion of their ancestry from ancient Judaeans; and if so, most AJ ancestry would owe its origin to European converts.

While this is one possible explanation, modern Italians themselves have had much higher proportions of ME admixture since at least European Imperial Roman times [43] and this is especially the case in modern Southern Italy [108]. Thus, an alternative explanation for these observations is that the true ME proportion in AJ is higher than in our fitting model, and that the actual contribution of Italians is not as large as suggested by this analysis. Under this scenario, good qpAdm fits are obtained using South-Italians as sources simply because they are a modern population that harbors a relatively high proportion of ME ancestry. If this alternative explanation is right, the true ME proportion could be higher than in our models, e.g., close to the 30-50% estimates from previous studies [40, 51] or when modeling EAJ using North-Italians.

In an opposite scenario, AJ may have no ancestry at all from the ancient Levant. This could be the case if an unsampled Italian population (with more Levantine-like admixture than in modern South-Italians) is the source of all the Levantine-like ancestry seen in AJ. At present, we believe all types of scenarios are plausible. Co-analysis of ancient DNA data from the Middle East and the Italian peninsula from Antiquity and the early Medieval period would make it possible to distinguish them.
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Re: The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

#13  Postby Spearthrower » Dec 04, 2022 3:09 pm

Wortfish wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
That's not a conclusion you can draw with any level of confidence, not just based on the extremely low sample size, but even the implications of the paper hold no sound justification for such a synopsis, which then still provokes my confusion with your interest in this specific topic.


You need to read the Supplementary data: https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1 ... 2-mmc1.pdf

Models with a South-Italian source were more frequently favored by qpAdm (Table S3) and have a plausible historical basis (above). However, these models suggested that only about 20% of EAJ ancestry derived from Middle Eastern sources. This is less than previous estimates based on modern SNP and sequencing data [40, 51]. This may also be interpreted to imply that present-day AJ derive only a small proportion of their ancestry from ancient Judaeans; and if so, most AJ ancestry would owe its origin to European converts.

While this is one possible explanation, modern Italians themselves have had much higher proportions of ME admixture since at least European Imperial Roman times [43] and this is especially the case in modern Southern Italy [108]. Thus, an alternative explanation for these observations is that the true ME proportion in AJ is higher than in our fitting model, and that the actual contribution of Italians is not as large as suggested by this analysis. Under this scenario, good qpAdm fits are obtained using South-Italians as sources simply because they are a modern population that harbors a relatively high proportion of ME ancestry. If this alternative explanation is right, the true ME proportion could be higher than in our models, e.g., close to the 30-50% estimates from previous studies [40, 51] or when modeling EAJ using North-Italians.

In an opposite scenario, AJ may have no ancestry at all from the ancient Levant. This could be the case if an unsampled Italian population (with more Levantine-like admixture than in modern South-Italians) is the source of all the Levantine-like ancestry seen in AJ. At present, we believe all types of scenarios are plausible. Co-analysis of ancient DNA data from the Middle East and the Italian peninsula from Antiquity and the early Medieval period would make it possible to distinguish them.



I did and nothing there contradicts what I wrote.

I'll help you:


Models with a South-Italian source were more frequently favored by qpAdm (Table S3) and have a plausible historical basis (above). However, these models suggested that only about 20% of EAJ ancestry derived from Middle Eastern sources. This is less than previous estimates based on modern SNP and sequencing data [40, 51]. This may also be interpreted to imply that present-day AJ derive only a small proportion of their ancestry from ancient Judaeans; and if so, most AJ ancestry would owe its origin to European converts.

While this is one possible explanation, modern Italians themselves have had much higher proportions of ME admixture since at least European Imperial Roman times [43] and this is especially the case in modern Southern Italy [108]. Thus, an alternative explanation for these observations is that the true ME proportion in AJ is higher than in our fitting model, and that the actual contribution of Italians is not as large as suggested by this analysis. Under this scenario, good qpAdm fits are obtained using South-Italians as sources simply because they are a modern population that harbors a relatively high proportion of ME ancestry. If this alternative explanation is right, the true ME proportion could be higher than in our models, e.g., close to the 30-50% estimates from previous studies [40, 51] or when modeling EAJ using North-Italians.

In an opposite scenario, AJ may have no ancestry at all from the ancient Levant. This could be the case if an unsampled Italian population (with more Levantine-like admixture than in modern South-Italians) is the source of all the Levantine-like ancestry seen in AJ. At present, we believe all types of scenarios are plausible. Co-analysis of ancient DNA data from the Middle East and the Italian peninsula from Antiquity and the early Medieval period would make it possible to distinguish them.


This is standard language in papers like this - it's entirely normal to expect one's reader to be able to understand the concept of modeling plausible outcomes rather than stating certainty in specific claims.
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Re: The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

#14  Postby Greg the Grouper » Dec 04, 2022 9:28 pm

Wortfish wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
That's not a conclusion you can draw with any level of confidence, not just based on the extremely low sample size, but even the implications of the paper hold no sound justification for such a synopsis, which then still provokes my confusion with your interest in this specific topic.


You need to read the Supplementary data: https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1 ... 2-mmc1.pdf

Models with a South-Italian source were more frequently favored by qpAdm (Table S3) and have a plausible historical basis (above). However, these models suggested that only about 20% of EAJ ancestry derived from Middle Eastern sources. This is less than previous estimates based on modern SNP and sequencing data [40, 51]. This may also be interpreted to imply that present-day AJ derive only a small proportion of their ancestry from ancient Judaeans; and if so, most AJ ancestry would owe its origin to European converts.

While this is one possible explanation, modern Italians themselves have had much higher proportions of ME admixture since at least European Imperial Roman times [43] and this is especially the case in modern Southern Italy [108]. Thus, an alternative explanation for these observations is that the true ME proportion in AJ is higher than in our fitting model, and that the actual contribution of Italians is not as large as suggested by this analysis. Under this scenario, good qpAdm fits are obtained using South-Italians as sources simply because they are a modern population that harbors a relatively high proportion of ME ancestry. If this alternative explanation is right, the true ME proportion could be higher than in our models, e.g., close to the 30-50% estimates from previous studies [40, 51] or when modeling EAJ using North-Italians.

In an opposite scenario, AJ may have no ancestry at all from the ancient Levant. This could be the case if an unsampled Italian population (with more Levantine-like admixture than in modern South-Italians) is the source of all the Levantine-like ancestry seen in AJ. At present, we believe all types of scenarios are plausible. Co-analysis of ancient DNA data from the Middle East and the Italian peninsula from Antiquity and the early Medieval period would make it possible to distinguish them.


It's honestly amazing that you can quote an entire three paragraghs implying that the conclusion you've drawn is merely one of a plurality of possibilities and somehow think that one sentence in that quote is proof of your conclusion.

Can you just tell us what ridiculous motivation you had that inspired your selective reading of this material?
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Re: The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

#15  Postby Wortfish » Dec 04, 2022 10:54 pm

Greg the Grouper wrote:
It's honestly amazing that you can quote an entire three paragraghs implying that the conclusion you've drawn is merely one of a plurality of possibilities and somehow think that one sentence in that quote is proof of your conclusion. Can you just tell us what ridiculous motivation you had that inspired your selective reading of this material?


How about the *** data ***. Go check it out: https://view.officeapps.live.com/op/vie ... BROWSELINK

80% of the male Y-chromosomal haplogroups are found mainly among Southern Europeans, Caucasians and Middle Easterners outside of the Levant. Virtually all of the mitochondrial DNA is found at low frequencies among Levantine populations.
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Re: The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

#16  Postby Spearthrower » Dec 05, 2022 1:56 am

The paper you're citing does not support confident conclusions.

Despite this being underlined for you so you can't miss it, you still insist that you are correct.

How, then, is anyone supposed to have a conversation with you about this, or frankly, about anything? If you won't represent the facts we can all see accurately, then it'd seem a pointless task.

It would also make me wonder why the strange interest in the origin of Jews - I mean, history provides ample examples of Christians being manically vicious twerps to Jews. Perhaps that's unfair of me to link you to that, but you don't seem interested for purely academic reasons, else you wouldn't be claiming a paper that goes out of its way to talk about competing 'plausible models' supports such confident contentions. And you've not taken the opportunity yet to explain what it is that does interest you here.
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Re: The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

#17  Postby Wortfish » Dec 05, 2022 11:35 am

Spearthrower wrote:The paper you're citing does not support confident conclusions.

Despite this being underlined for you so you can't miss it, you still insist that you are correct.

You are confused by the fact that in science all results are presented as tentative and provisional. But all the evidence points in one direction. I have looked at the data, and it unmistakably shows that the Jews of Erfurt were mostly Italian in origin with a substantial Eurasian contribution. Some Near Eastern ancestry is probably there, but it is unclear from where exactly.

It would also make me wonder why the strange interest in the origin of Jews - I mean, history provides ample examples of Christians being manically vicious twerps to Jews. Perhaps that's unfair of me to link you to that, but you don't seem interested for purely academic reasons, else you wouldn't be claiming a paper that goes out of its way to talk about competing 'plausible models' supports such confident contentions. And you've not taken the opportunity yet to explain what it is that does interest you here.

The origins of Ashkenazi Jews is a subject of considerable debate. 20 years ago, researchers claimed that they had found genetic evidence that AJs were blood brothers with Arabs, and so were likely descended from Judaeans who migrated out of Palestine. However, as more studies were conducted, it became clear this was a false interpretation and that AJs likely had origins within Europe. This paper is the latest in overturning the mythological claim that Jews are really Judaeans in exile.

I thought this forum was a place for debunking stuff? Do you believe all Jews are descended from Jacob via Abraham?
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Re: The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

#18  Postby Wortfish » Dec 05, 2022 11:47 am

I should also point out that in the 19th century, it was "anti-semitic" to imply that Jews were a separate ethnos and not a religious/cultural group. That changed with the Zionist project which claimed that Jews, in fact, were a population in exile and their homeland was in Palestine (ironically as the Nazis also insisted). It is now regarded as "anti-semitic" (by some) to claim that Jews are not descended from the ancient Judaeans, but are actually the product of conversion in many countries.
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Re: The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

#19  Postby Spearthrower » Dec 05, 2022 1:32 pm

Wortfish wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:The paper you're citing does not support confident conclusions.

Despite this being underlined for you so you can't miss it, you still insist that you are correct.


You are confused by the fact that in science all results are presented as tentative and provisional.


Oh no, you don't get to play silly buggers when you clearly can't fucking read the words written in the paper you're citing.

I am not only very familiar with how science is reported (I've taught it before to professional scientists and doctors), but routinely read papers on topics like this because it's firmly in my field. You're not going to get away with such a lazy evasion.

Moreover, and underscoring what a pathetic response this was, I already had to highlight in bright colours the litany of phrases the writers used to impress upon everyone that these were plausible models, not actual claims containing any degree of certainty at all.

Plausible doesn't mean it happened, which is why they wrote about multiple plausible models that must currently be vying to overcome your cognitive bias.


Wortfish wrote:But all the evidence points in one direction.


Then you need to cite that evidence, because the paper you cited as support for this position doesn't actually in any way, shape or form suggest that the evidence all points to one conclusion.

This is not only an outright lie, but it is a lie of such magnitude you can't pretend it's ignorant naivety - this is you acting the part of the lying Creationist morally incapable of managing any degree of facts which don't conform to your wish-thinking.


Wortfish wrote: I have looked at the data,...


At the data provided in the same paper which categorically doesn't support your assertion that the evidence all leads to one position?

Or some other data you're yet to present?


Wortfish wrote: and it unmistakably shows that the Jews of Erfurt were mostly Italian in origin with a substantial Eurasian contribution.


Which pretty much shows why such little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.


Wortfish wrote:Some Near Eastern ancestry is probably there, but it is unclear from where exactly.


Well, from the near East. Remind me of what modern nations might be described as being in the near East?

https://www.worldhistory.org/Near_East/

The Near East is a modern-age term for the region formerly known as the Middle East comprising Armenia, Cyprus, Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Palestine, Syria, and part of Turkey, corresponding to ancient Urartu, Mesopotamia, Elam, Persia, the Levant, and Anatolia. The history of the ancient Near East is usually given as c. 5000 BCE-7th century CE.


Did you want to slip on your oversize shoes and start honking your big red nose now, or were you saving that for the finale?


Wortfish wrote:
It would also make me wonder why the strange interest in the origin of Jews - I mean, history provides ample examples of Christians being manically vicious twerps to Jews. Perhaps that's unfair of me to link you to that, but you don't seem interested for purely academic reasons, else you wouldn't be claiming a paper that goes out of its way to talk about competing 'plausible models' supports such confident contentions. And you've not taken the opportunity yet to explain what it is that does interest you here.


The origins of Ashkenazi Jews is a subject of considerable debate.


Typically a subject of considerable debate among white ethnonationalist anti-semites, yes. And yes, they are overwhelmingly Christian.


Wortfish wrote: 20 years ago, researchers claimed that they had found genetic evidence that AJs were blood brothers with Arabs,...


Researchers from the clown school of Creationist clownery, no doubt?

"Blood brothers" :lol:

Were the researchers 6 years old?


Wortfish wrote:... and so were likely descended from Judaeans who migrated out of Palestine. However, as more studies were conducted, it became clear this was a false interpretation and that AJs likely had origins within Europe. This paper is the latest in overturning the mythological claim that Jews are really Judaeans in exile.


This paper completely contradicts that in totality. Shame you can't appear to read any of the bits that don't conform to your wish-thinking, possibly motivated by some radical Christian hatred of Jews, or maybe just some white supremacy, or maybe it's purely innocent idiocy?


Wortfish wrote:I thought this forum was a place for debunking stuff?


Yeah, that's what's happening.


Wortfish wrote:Do you believe all Jews are descended from Jacob via Abraham?


Um, where have I suggested I believe in the kind of absurd caricatures found in religious tracts like... oh, your own one.
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Re: The non-Levantine origins of Ashkenazi Jews

#20  Postby Spearthrower » Dec 05, 2022 1:39 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
Quick question, Wortfish, using a word you quoted: What does admixture denote? We wouldn't call Italians mixing with Italians a mixture, would we? Well, we could, but then I guess we're all Ashkenazi Jews.


Only the supreme creator of the universe could hope to fathom what confounding assumptions are benighting Wortfish's ability to draw a specific conclusion from a paper which specifically does not make that claim but instead acknowledges the numerous plausible explanations for such admixture.
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