Untold History of the United States

Discussion and analysis of past events and their causes and effects.

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Re: Untold History of the United States

#61  Postby crank » Jun 02, 2016 8:02 pm

Galactor wrote:
crank wrote:I have a great deal of contempt for those who think war and combat are somehow admirable, noble deeds. Do you want to defend that? Can you name many wars that were not a mass-slaughter of mostly the young and less well-off for the purposes of increasing the wealth and power of the elite? How many wars didn't involve the mass slaughter of innocents, usually for little to no reason? Even WWII, much of it resulted from BS, like the treatment of Germany after the stupidity and horrors of WWI, like what's been described above. A lot of the bullshit we're dealing with in the MidEast can be seen as stemming from the arrogant, ignorant, self-serving partitioning inflicted on the region post-WWI. The American Civil War, while a seeming noble cause, it still flowed from the ugliness of slavery along with the cowardice and greed of earlier politicians to deal with adequately, and the very few elites in the South that owned slaves wanting to keep their horrific institution, a slavery far more brutal and degrading than most historic forms of it. Don't think the Northern politicians didn't have a lot to do with prolonging the situation, just like they abandoned protecting blacks not too long after the war, there was plenty of self-serving accommodation for decades before the war.

Who do you think actually cares about soldiers more, the patriots who wave flags glorifying their service, their sacrifice, or those who try desperately to keep them from having to go to war in the first place? The biggest killer in the military over recent years is suicide, how noble is that? We're still blessed with way the fuck too many of the aholes and idiots that perpetrated the Iraq war, still subjected to their pontificating nonsense, shame and ridicule isn't strong enough, tar and feathers would help too.


So much tripe that I hardly know where to start.

I'll begin with this:

I have a great deal of contempt for those who think war and combat are somehow admirable, noble deeds.


Is crank really suggesting that, for example, the actions of the so called "few" in the battle of Britain was not an admirable and noble deed and that contempt is warranted?

And that we shouldn't have memorials to the dead?

Perhaps crank should make a start by asking the members of the various old soldiers organisations whether or not there should be memorials to their dead.

Perhaps he should look them in the face while he tells them of his contempt for their sacrifices in these wars.

It really is contemptible what he has written.


It really is contemptible to not realize what war is, that no matter how 'valiant and noble' individual deeds may be, the bigger picture erases all of that. Wars, fighting, combat, all were a huge part of our history as a species, as we've gotten more civilized, this has abated more and more. It's time we grew up enough to realize how fucked up it is and stop. The more we glorify it, the harder that is and the longer it will take. Why do you think gung ho military types are so anxious to find and exalt 'heroes'? The reality is you get Tilmans, made a hero to hide the reality that he was killed by friendly fire and maybe even fragged. The fog of war? It's not mostly on the battlefield, it's in the bullshit propaganda of glorified patriotic war.
“When you're born into this world, you're given a ticket to the freak show. If you're born in America you get a front row seat.”
-George Carlin, who died 2008. Ha, now we have human centipedes running the place
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Re: Untold History of the United States

#62  Postby Galactor » Jun 02, 2016 8:53 pm

Sendraks wrote:

Well if you were offering an opinion, rather than trying to shout down those who disagreed with you via applications of snide condescension, you might be able to get a discussion going. As it stands, you're just on your high horse of "I'm right and everyone else is wrong."


Did you actually read what Spearthrower and jamest have written about my opinions as regards the inaction of the guilty men? Well, did you fucking read them?

And you have the fucking temerity to suggest I am shouting people down and dishing out snide remarks?

And you dare ask ME who gives a shit about my opinions before accusing me of condescension?

Do you not think I have every right to react in kind to those who blithely dismiss my opinions as "woo" or state that I am talking bollocks without even having inquired how I might support, with evidence, the opinion that I proffered?

And you tell me I am shouting people down! Fucking contemptible. Read their remarks and tell me I have no right to react as I have done. Go on, fucking read them or shut up.
Well? Well, do you not fucking well think that? You might look back at their responses and accuse them of the same.

And you. You talk about condescension after having inferred that my opinions were of no import.

Is anyone supposed to give two shits about this?


That's what you wrote and for shame. Shame! It is nothing short of bigotry.



Sendraks wrote:
Galactor wrote:Is it because they should care about HIS opinion and not mine?

That would be bigotry!


Cute strawman you're building.


It IS bigotry. Expressing the opinion that no-one should be interested in another mans opinion is bigotry.

Sendraks wrote:You're the one who got up on his high horse, don't go blaming me if the thought of falling off bothers you.

I am not "blaming" you for any such thing. I am pointing out to you that I have every right to respond in kind to those who blithely dismiss my opinions as you, spearthrower and jamest have done.

Go and read their remarks and come back and tell me that I am shouting people down! Go on, fucking read their comments or shut the fuck up.

And go and re-read your own comments until you realize how disgraceful they are.
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Re: Untold History of the United States

#63  Postby Galactor » Jun 02, 2016 9:01 pm

crank wrote:It really is contemptible to not realize what war is, that no matter how 'valiant and noble' individual deeds may be, the bigger picture erases all of that. Wars, fighting, combat, all were a huge part of our history as a species, as we've gotten more civilized, this has abated more and more. It's time we grew up enough to realize how fucked up it is and stop. The more we glorify it, the harder that is and the longer it will take. Why do you think gung ho military types are so anxious to find and exalt 'heroes'? The reality is you get Tilmans, made a hero to hide the reality that he was killed by friendly fire and maybe even fragged. The fog of war? It's not mostly on the battlefield, it's in the bullshit propaganda of glorified patriotic war.


I am not sure how you dare enquote "valiant and noble" before "erasing" the notion. Their valiant actions and deeds get erased do they?

I am so sick to the stomach with your position and so unwilling to engage you any more on it, that I will just leave it at that.
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Re: Untold History of the United States

#64  Postby Sendraks » Jun 02, 2016 9:13 pm

Galactor wrote:And you have the fucking temerity to suggest I am shouting people down and dishing out snide remarks?


I do, because you are and you're doing it now.

Galactor wrote:And you dare ask ME who gives a shit about my opinions before accusing me of condescension?

I do. Although it isn't terribly daring of me to do. I mean, whatcha gonna do in response other than bluster some more.

I'm terrified.

Galactor wrote:ADo you not think I have every right to react in kind to those who blithely dismiss my opinions as "woo" or state that I am talking bollocks without even having inquired how I might support, with evidence, the opinion that I proffered?

Do I care?

Galactor wrote:And you tell me I am shouting people down! Fucking contemptible. Read their remarks and tell me I have no right to react as I have done. Go on, fucking read them or shut up.
Well? Well, do you not fucking well think that? You might look back at their responses and accuse them of the same.


Buhu.

Galactor wrote:That's what you wrote and for shame. Shame! It is nothing short of bigotry.

Hmmm, maybe if you shout bigotry enough times it'l become true?
Perhaps if you weelly, weelly, beweeve?

Galactor wrote:It IS bigotry. Expressing the opinion that no-one should be interested in another mans opinion is bigotry.

Nope.
If I were to act intolerant of your opinion and tell you to shut up, that would be bigotry.
As it stands, you're free to rant as you wish, that no one need give a shit about your rants, is not bigotry.

Galactor wrote:I am not "blaming" you for any such thing. I am pointing out to you that I have every right to respond in kind to those who blithely dismiss my opinions as you, spearthrower and jamest have done.

And I'm pointing out that we have the right not to give a shit.

Galactor wrote:Go and read their remarks and come back and tell me that I am shouting people down! Go on, fucking read their comments or shut the fuck up.

See, telling me to shut the fuck up for expressing a view, now that is bigoted.

Galactor wrote:IAnd go and re-read your own comments until you realize how disgraceful they are.

You first. If you're capable of such introspection that is.
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Re: Untold History of the United States

#65  Postby crank » Jun 03, 2016 8:06 am

Galactor wrote:
crank wrote:It really is contemptible to not realize what war is, that no matter how 'valiant and noble' individual deeds may be, the bigger picture erases all of that. Wars, fighting, combat, all were a huge part of our history as a species, as we've gotten more civilized, this has abated more and more. It's time we grew up enough to realize how fucked up it is and stop. The more we glorify it, the harder that is and the longer it will take. Why do you think gung ho military types are so anxious to find and exalt 'heroes'? The reality is you get Tilmans, made a hero to hide the reality that he was killed by friendly fire and maybe even fragged. The fog of war? It's not mostly on the battlefield, it's in the bullshit propaganda of glorified patriotic war.


I am not sure how you dare enquote "valiant and noble" before "erasing" the notion. Their valiant actions and deeds get erased do they?

I am so sick to the stomach with your position and so unwilling to engage you any more on it, that I will just leave it at that.

You're sick to your stomach? How do you think, say, the Laotians feel about any honors given any US soldiers? There are still people there, mostly children, dying every year from unexploded bombs left after the insane tonnage of ordinance we dropped there 4 decades ago. It's the sick, disgusting wilful ignorance you seem to evidence that keeps the horrors going. There are still despicable aholes who try to make the Vietnam war into something other than the depraved, immoral operation it was. It's like a Brit who still looks at their imperialism and keeps telling themselves how wonderful it was, and what good it did for so many throughout the world. And those here in the US who attack anyone who tells the truth about Columbus. It's that willingness to not abide the truth, to not allow oneself to perceive reality, that is at the heart of a lot of the problems I'm trying to describe. You're sick to your stomach because you can't deal with the effort trying to keep reality out, the cognitive dissonance triggers nausea.
“When you're born into this world, you're given a ticket to the freak show. If you're born in America you get a front row seat.”
-George Carlin, who died 2008. Ha, now we have human centipedes running the place
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Re: Untold History of the United States

#66  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Jun 03, 2016 8:18 am

And women get dismissed as emotional. Sheesh.
what a terrible image
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Re: Untold History of the United States

#67  Postby crank » Jun 07, 2016 6:25 am

If that's to me, well, let's just say my manliness is a bit swishy swashy.
“When you're born into this world, you're given a ticket to the freak show. If you're born in America you get a front row seat.”
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Re: Untold History of the United States

#68  Postby Fallible » Jun 07, 2016 7:22 am

I doubt it was to you. I thought I'd stumbled on some 18th Century melodrama for a moment.
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
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Re: Untold History of the United States

#69  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Jun 07, 2016 8:18 am

I need my fainting couch!

Image
what a terrible image
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Re: Untold History of the United States

#70  Postby surreptitious57 » Jun 07, 2016 10:16 am

The failure of the French and British to march into the Rhineland in 1936 was quite simply a tactical error of monumental significance. One can legitimately argue that Chamberlain or Daladier could not possibly have known that at the time. But the Versailles treaty of 1919 specifically stated that it had to be a demilitarised zone. By letting the Germans march into it they were just as guilty of them of not enforcing it. Hitler was genuinely afraid in 1936. The German people were afraid too They wanted the Rhineland but without having to fight for it. Which they did not of course. And then two years later in 1938 in Munich Hitler was banging his fist up on the table as the British and French were undecided about whether to give him just the Sudetenland or the whole of Czechoslovakia instead. And it was here he referred to Chamberlain and Daladier as maggots
German rearmament was supposed to be halted after 1918 as stipulated in the Versailles treaty. But as with the Rhineland the British and French were not enforcing it so for the twenty years between 1919 - 39 Germany was effectively preparing
for war without hindrance. So it did not begin in 1933 only after Hitler came to power. The Versailles treaty was therefore not worth the paper it was written on since none of the three nations who signed it showed no inclination of adhering to it
at all. Though blame for it lies fairly and squarely with the British and French. And without the advantage of hindsight also
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Re: Untold History of the United States

#71  Postby Briton » Jun 07, 2016 4:02 pm

Don't forget the occupation of the Rhur by the French over failure to pay reparations ended up with the Germans getting international sympathy and a new deal. The French got some of their money but the British and Americans turned against them. I guess that might have had an effect on the French attitude at least.

It was an error though, I doubt anyone would argue otherwise.
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Re: Untold History of the United States

#72  Postby Sendraks » Jun 07, 2016 4:06 pm

Hindsight is 20/20.

I wonder if the British politicians of the day, dealing with complex social and economic issues at home, not the least of which was a public which was still decidedly "anti-war" in mentality, would have made different decisions had they known arm-chair generals 60 years later would be so cutting in their commentary.

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Re: Untold History of the United States

#73  Postby Sgt Kelly » Jun 17, 2016 3:24 pm

Just happened across this video which reminded me of this thread.
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