A Message to President Obama from a former Muslim

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A Message to President Obama from a former Muslim

#1  Postby Peter Brown » Nov 04, 2014 8:49 pm



I saw this on the Sam Harris web site and thought it worth linking.

For me it highlights the absurd position that polititians and the PC liberals take. Islam the religion of peace? why do I not see that when I read the Quran? Why is it when I talk with Muslims and say its a religion of the sword, a religion as practiced by ISIL et al they say show me the verses?? Don't they read the same book I did?

to steal a quote from the thread I got the link from

burt - 07 September 2014 01:35 AM He is wrong on many accounts. There is an excellent article in the Huffington post pointing out that in fact ISIS is following Wahabist interpretations of Islam. Saying they are the pure Islam is like saying Jehovah’s Witnesses are pure Christianity.

mralstoner - 07 September 2014 05:57 I don’t know much about Wahhabism, but I do know the prophet Mohammed chopped off many heads and promised paradise for those who fought to advance Islam. Sounds much like ISIS to me.

burt So based on your ignorance you have decided that you know all about Islam. Good going. - See more at: http://www.project-reason.org/forum/vie ... GW4Hg.dpuf
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Re: A Message to President Obama from a former Muslim

#2  Postby Ironclad » Nov 04, 2014 9:21 pm

So what is the 'root' that must be dealt with? We can't war against Islam itself. I missed something, I suspect.
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Re: A Message to President Obama from a former Muslim

#3  Postby Peter Brown » Nov 04, 2014 10:30 pm

I guess the root has to be not allowing something's to go unchallenged, or even covered up, but to challenge and say not on my watch you don't.

For instance gay tolerance didn't start by allowing the religious right to continue the love the sinner but not the sin message, or but letting the slaves be dutiful to their masters message to continue.

We have to tackle the Muslim intolerant verses and say no, NO, NO until it is finally understood no means no

It has to be no in the schools, no in the media and no in diplomacy, and a big no in covering intolerance up with PC liberalism like Islamophobia, and a no to letting Islamic UN members sneaking it in via the back door too.

That's my impression anyhow.
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Re: A Message to President Obama from a former Muslim

#4  Postby Ven. Kwan Tam Woo » Nov 04, 2014 10:39 pm

Peter Brown wrote:We have to tackle the Muslim intolerant verses and say no, NO, NO until it is finally understood no means no

It has to be no in the schools, no in the media and no in diplomacy, and a big no in covering intolerance up with PC liberalism like Islamophobia.


RACIST!!! :crying: :naughty: :nono: :silenced:
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Re: A Message to President Obama from a former Muslim

#5  Postby epepke » Nov 04, 2014 10:41 pm

Personally, I'd simply prefer seeing people like this with experience and education, whatever their opinions of Islam happen to be, more than I want to see Bill Maher and Ben Affleck. That's a first step to get the discussion by Muslims and ex-Muslims who have an idea what they are talking about. I think I've heard enough by people who have more agendas than knowledge.
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Re: A Message to President Obama from a former Muslim

#6  Postby Peter Brown » Nov 04, 2014 10:43 pm

Ven. Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Peter Brown wrote:We have to tackle the Muslim intolerant verses and say no, NO, NO until it is finally understood no means no

It has to be no in the schools, no in the media and no in diplomacy, and a big no in covering intolerance up with PC liberalism like Islamophobia.


RACIST!!! :naughty: :naughty: :naughty:


If that is racism I'm proud to be so
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Re: A Message to President Obama from a former Muslim

#7  Postby Ven. Kwan Tam Woo » Nov 04, 2014 10:46 pm

Peter Brown wrote:
Ven. Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Peter Brown wrote:We have to tackle the Muslim intolerant verses and say no, NO, NO until it is finally understood no means no

It has to be no in the schools, no in the media and no in diplomacy, and a big no in covering intolerance up with PC liberalism like Islamophobia.


RACIST!!! :naughty: :naughty: :naughty:


If that is racism I'm proud to be so


:cheers:
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Re: A Message to President Obama from a former Muslim

#8  Postby Peter Brown » Nov 04, 2014 10:50 pm

epepke wrote:Personally, I'd simply prefer seeing people like this with experience and education, whatever their opinions of Islam happen to be, more than I want to see Bill Maher and Ben Affleck. That's a first step to get the discussion by Muslims and ex-Muslims who have an idea what they are talking about. I think I've heard enough by people who have more agendas than knowledge.


The only openness I've seen has been from ex Muslims. Muslims like Reza Aslan lie through their teeth and smoke screen history. Like in a recent conversation he came up with Islam didn't fight a religious war in the Middle East because they forbad conversion to Islam because the Jizya was too good an income for Islamic leaders. Like bullshit Reza!
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Re: A Message to President Obama from a former Muslim

#9  Postby epepke » Nov 05, 2014 12:06 am

Peter Brown wrote:
epepke wrote:Personally, I'd simply prefer seeing people like this with experience and education, whatever their opinions of Islam happen to be, more than I want to see Bill Maher and Ben Affleck. That's a first step to get the discussion by Muslims and ex-Muslims who have an idea what they are talking about. I think I've heard enough by people who have more agendas than knowledge.


The only openness I've seen has been from ex Muslims. Muslims like Reza Aslan lie through their teeth and smoke screen history. Like in a recent conversation he came up with Islam didn't fight a religious war in the Middle East because they forbad conversion to Islam because the Jizya was too good an income for Islamic leaders. Like bullshit Reza!


I don't even care, really. Just get them out there. What they say, they say. I'd rather watch some Muslims lying and ex-Muslims challenging them than see Bill Maher and Ben Affleck. Or maybe the communication patterns will be different. Let's see it. Let's see who really cares about the image of Islam and Muslims enough to show up and be heard.

Wasn't this posted recently on another thread?



Almost immediately there were people saying this guy was insignificant. I don't know. Get this guy on a panel with some other people from British Muslim and ex-Muslim organizations, and let the chips fall where they may. Let's see if other Muslim organizations gang up on him or run interference for him or whatever. That would be useful information.
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Re: A Message to President Obama from a former Muslim

#10  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 05, 2014 2:04 am

Ironclad wrote:So what is the 'root' that must be dealt with? We can't war against Islam itself. I missed something, I suspect.


It's mystifying.
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Re: A Message to President Obama from a former Muslim

#11  Postby Peter Brown » Nov 05, 2014 2:17 am

I said I thought Reza Aslan lied through his teeth when he talks about Islam, it seems I'm not the only one to think that, although Reza is not mentioned by name, his type of Muslim is in this Christian based clip. (before and about 10.22)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E63Qo09H ... 1066D19DFA


now this next video raised an interesting question. How many books were written about the Crusades? Now how many books were written about the expansion of Islam?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQs3SAfx ... FA&index=3

answer below
Crusades = 200+ books vs expansion of 7th century Islam = 1
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Re: A Message to President Obama from a former Muslim

#12  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 05, 2014 7:41 am

Peter Brown wrote:I said I thought Reza Aslan lied through his teeth when he talks about Islam, it seems I'm not the only one to think that, although Reza is not mentioned by name, his type of Muslim is in this Christian based clip. (before and about 10.22)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E63Qo09H ... 1066D19DFA


now this next video raised an interesting question. How many books were written about the Crusades? Now how many books were written about the expansion of Islam?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQs3SAfx ... FA&index=3

answer below
Crusades = 200+ books vs expansion of 7th century Islam = 1



Is that 'how many books were written in English or other European languages?' because it seems highly likely that Europeans would spend more efforts on cataloging a history they're familar with than one they're not familiar with. A historical bias.

Even if that were the case, I can immediately find more than 1. So whence cometh this contention?

Here's just a 2 minute search.

"The Preaching of Islam: A History of the Propagation of the Muslim Faith." - Sir Thomas Walker Arnold.
"Islam in Global History: From the Death of Prophet Muhammed to the First World War." - Nazeer Ahmed.
"The Cambridge History of Islam." - P. M. Holt, Bernard Lewis,
"The Formation of Islam." - Jonathan Berkey
"A History of the Arab Peoples." Albert Hourani
"The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier." - Eaton, Richard M.
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Re: A Message to President Obama from a former Muslim

#13  Postby Peter Brown » Nov 05, 2014 10:27 am

I took that question and answer from 9 mins into this clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQs3SAfx ... FA&index=3
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Re: A Message to President Obama from a former Muslim

#14  Postby OlivierK » Nov 05, 2014 10:33 am

So...

What does that tell you about the quality of the video?
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Re: A Message to President Obama from a former Muslim

#15  Postby Nicko » Nov 05, 2014 11:46 am

Peter Brown wrote:... to steal a quote from the thread I got the link from

burt - 07 September 2014 01:35 AM He is wrong on many accounts. There is an excellent article in the Huffington post pointing out that in fact ISIS is following Wahabist interpretations of Islam. Saying they are the pure Islam is like saying Jehovah’s Witnesses are pure Christianity.

mralstoner - 07 September 2014 05:57 I don’t know much about Wahhabism, but I do know the prophet Mohammed chopped off many heads and promised paradise for those who fought to advance Islam. Sounds much like ISIS to me.

burt So based on your ignorance you have decided that you know all about Islam. Good going. - See more at: http://www.project-reason.org/forum/vie ... GW4Hg.dpuf


What's your point with this quote? Seems fair enough to me.

One thing I think a lot of people opposed to some of the more egregious acts committed in the name of Islam - including Harris himself - often forget is the path by which the West ameliorated many of the more virulent expressions of Christianity. Peeling off and marginalising the extremists is a much better strategy that opposing the entire religion head-on.
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Re: A Message to President Obama from a former Muslim

#16  Postby Peter Brown » Nov 05, 2014 12:20 pm

Well my problem is the denial that is going on in the defence of the Quran.

If a book for example can be quoted in saying "kill all the Jews", do you think it fair to respond after that quotation is brought up "so you think you know all about that book then?" or do you think as I do the response is trying to hide or cover up or smoke screen, (however you want to put it), the simple information that this book quote says 'kill all the Jews'.

I find that denial goes on in Muslim debates all the time, it is really incredible and far more in degree than what say far right Christians go to.

You will find Muslims online who quite bluntly tell you Mohammed never stole, Mohammed never killed, Islam never waged war, Islam never spread by the sword, Islam treats Christians and Jews really well (never over taxed them or restricted their religion) and of course the classic Islam is the religion of peace.

Just like bert did, they will say you are ignorant or a liar if you show the information and even Quran quotes contradicting their world view on Islam
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Re: A Message to President Obama from a former Muslim

#17  Postby Peter Brown » Nov 05, 2014 12:28 pm

OlivierK wrote:So...

What does that tell you about the quality of the video?


That it has a heavy religious slant, but the evangelising does give that away anyhow.

I still think the basic premise is true that history can be distorted by not informing just as much as by informing only in spin doctoring.
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Re: A Message to President Obama from a former Muslim

#18  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 05, 2014 2:14 pm

Peter Brown wrote:I took that question and answer from 9 mins into this clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQs3SAfx ... FA&index=3



Christian Media Productions is a media producer of christian media content.


It's a Christian propaganda outlet! ;)

It's also self-contradictory when they start off by talking about the variety of accounts and the number of historians who have written on the rise of Islam.
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Re: A Message to President Obama from a former Muslim

#19  Postby Peter Brown » Nov 05, 2014 2:54 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
It's a Christian propaganda outlet! ;)


Please don't quote Dawkins on evolution in the future, he runs the RDF. :P

On balance so far he has made some decent points regarding Islam and its followers. Certainly points I have heard made elsewhere he has expanded upon a great deal, or I've witnessed first hand things he refers to, or was able to cross reference the information.

I am overwhelmingly convinced that my message to the President would be:

This religion is a load of old bollocks and loopy-lou :dance:
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Re: A Message to President Obama from a former Muslim

#20  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 05, 2014 3:35 pm

Peter Brown wrote:
OlivierK wrote:So...

What does that tell you about the quality of the video?


That it has a heavy religious slant, but the evangelising does give that away anyhow.

I still think the basic premise is true that history can be distorted by not informing just as much as by informing only in spin doctoring.


I definitely agree that history may be distorted by the non-telling of some bits of it, but that is not the same kind of claim as of it not being told because of an agenda.

European writers have largely been preoccupied with European happenings; same is true in China about Chinese happenings, Thailand of Thai happenings, and so on. The bias in favour of tales in English about Christian Crusades would seem to me to be the product of a research bias, a linguistic bias, a cultural bias, and probably a market bias.

I am not even going to attempt to look up books in Arabic about the expansion of Islam, but I find it very difficult to believe that no such books exist in Arabic and other languages within the Islamic sphere. Although, I would expect that Muslim books in India, Persia/Iran, and the ex-Khaganates will be more specific to the Muslim conquest of Asia than N Africa.

What is of interest is how the guy on the video keeps mentioning N Africa, because it was part of the Christian sphere.

However, when you look at that claim a little closer, you'd quickly see how problematic, and even self-defeating that is for him when N Africa has clearly been under an Islamic sphere for far longer than it ever was under a Christian one.

He specifically mentioned Augustine - he's still harping about the loss of the bishopric of Hippo Regius over 1500 years later! :grin:


It begs poking at... exactly how long had Hippo Regius been Christian? Officially, since 380 CE after the Emperor Theodosius I legislated a state religion - the entire empire was now officially Christian. The Christian's claim to spiritual rights in this land are the product of a tyrant's decree!

Even that didn't last long, just 50 years later, the Vandals invaded Hippo Regius as the Western Roman Empire begun to crumble and Augustine died during the siege. Not that Geseric's Vandal Kingdom lasted long either as problems then began due to internecine conflict between the ruling elite Arian-Christian vandals, and their Trinitarian subjects.

This is where push really comes to shove for Western Christians, and is at the root of the divide between them and the Orthodox Christians: Augustine had effectively created the basis for the rights of the Catholic Church - the Trinitarians (essentially all of Western Christians) employed Augustine's writings as the basis for the rights of many aspects of their Church in Rome, and its role in society. You can see why this nettles somewhat!

Onwards it goes as the city's captured back briefly before once again falling under the 'wrong' type of Christianity after being conquered by the Eastern Roman in 534 AD, and then remained under Byzantine rule until 698 AD when it finally fell to the Umayyad Caliphate.

The Christians who lost it to the Muslims were the 'wrong' Christians! :lol:

But if we return to the first point: there are many bits of history not told, and history can indeed be distorted by the not telling of it. But why don't we regularly see books on this period of history? (Actually, I expect we would find plenty if we really looked - I've got a couple!) Now, I expect there is actually an element of the Catholic Church's power over the ages in there when everyone in Europe was Catholic by decree, and learning was largely the remit of the Church and its clergy - that's not to say they didn't know of these tales, but 'they' represented only a tiny fraction of the population of Europe.

But I expect why we don't really see much about it today is the same reasons I gave earlier: The bias against tales in English about the Christian period in Africa would seem to me to be the product of a research bias, a linguistic bias, a cultural bias, and probably a market bias. Europeans no longer see North Africa as part of their sphere, so they're just not as interested in it.
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