Svartalf wrote:
the link of Clovis to the papacy was one of mutual support, not one of subservience. Actually, if there was subservience, it might have been on the pope's part, as Rome had major trouble with most Germans subscribing to Arianism, and without Clovis' support, catholicism might very well have become extinct in the course of the 6th century.

I agree with almost "everything" you say.
I even "agree" on your other thread, with your assertions that Boudicca should not be classed an invasion.

But this argument ties in nicely with the other one i am having with spearthrower on a different thread, regards to his pointing out my innacuracies regarding "the pope" sending troops to the crusades, with him being of the belief, that the pope has no power to do so.

Though my argument is, he may not have the actual "power" to do so, but he certainly has the influence.

Clovis I is a fine example.

Clovis I was only the first

The same fate would also come to the viking Rollo

Rollo was a Viking who became the first ruler of Normandy, a region in northern France. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollo

Whilst Rollo was in the country of the Holy Roman Empire, he himself, which i am sure he did not originally intend, got converted to Roman Catholicism

Norse Paganism
later Roman Catholicism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollo

And if we go to William the conquror in 1066, he was a direct descenant of Rollo, the Roman Catholic, and William was also the first Norman king of England, a position he assumed during the early Norman invasions

, usually known as William the Conqueror and sometimes William the Bastard, was the first Norman King of England, reigning from 1066 until his death in 1087. He was a descendant of Rollo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_the_Conqueror

And this is how this information is also helpful for my other argument with Spearthrower, that seems to think there is no connection between the Pope, and british forces in the crusades.

and one of Guinness if you please

and Spearthower is right, the pope can call for a crusade, he has no power to enforce people responding to that call.

and Clovis did his conquering for his own sake, not at the behest of the pope. Actually, at the time, the notion of fighting for the faith did not yet exist, and popes' aspirations to temporal power had not yet emerged.

and you"re completely wrong about Rollo. He was in the Frankish kingdom of Charles the Simple. which had been separate from the Geerman Empire since the time Karl der Grosse's three grandsons diveded up the empire between themselves, the German Empire being the lot of Louis the Germanic.

As for william the bastard, he was the first Norman king of England, the position having previously been occupied by any number of Saxon (and christian) kings, most norably Edward the Confessor and Harold Godwinson.

Svartalf wrote:and one of Guinness if you please

I would just like to add. Not for "your" understanding, but for Spearthrowers understanding (though you are free to disagree with me) that Rollos switch to Catholicism, was not a religious one, but a political one.

There is conflicting opinion whether Rollo was Danish or Norwegian.

Medieval sources contradict each other regarding whether Rollo's family was Norwegian or Danish in origin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollo

But if he was Danish, he would likely be from a Danish-Anglo house, such as "House of Knýtlinga"

The Danish House of Knýtlinga (English: "House of Cnut's Descendants") was a ruling royal house in Middle Age Scandinavia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Kn%C3%BDtlinga

"

But by alligning himself with Roman Catholicism, instead of norse paganism, he is kind of declaring allegiences to Avignon, over Norse royal houses.

Or at the very least, declaring a varying degree of loyalty.

laklak wrote:I'll have a pint of bitter if you've got, landlord.

Aye! A foaming pint of best bitter it is.


Enjoy!

WTF does Avignon have to do with all this? Rollo became duke of Normandy in 953, while the First Avignon pope was Clement V (Bertrand de Got), who became pope in 1305 and settled in Avignon in 1309.

You, sir, are a master of anachonistic statements.

Svartalf wrote:WTF does Avignon have to do with all this? Rollo became duke of Normandy in 953, while the First Avignon pope was Clement V (Bertrand de Got), who became pope in 1305 and settled in Avignon in 1309.

You, sir, are a master of anachonistic statements.

Did i provide a link for the claim of avignon? no

Because it is of no importance. They were alligned to the Papacy.

Nevets wrote:"think", i "think" it says?

Yes, I realize I might be assuming a little too much comprehension, but your argument was:

Of course, Clovis had no allegiences to the Holy Roman Empire

Which Sendraks then pointed out that the Holy Roman Empire didn't even exist then.

And you replied:

Nevets wrote:I am going to give you a minute or two to prepair for this. But i have "the" Ace card....Will be revealed in next 60 seconds

Which aside from being pompous is also depressingly lacking in self-awareness, but then the comical element was reinforced when you went on to cite this:

Nevets wrote:
Royal Flush

Clovis I, king of the Franks, was the first important barbarian ruler to convert to Catholicism rather than Arianism, allying himself with the papacy.(55) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope#Nica ... %80%931054)

Which quite literally has fuck all to do with anything.

The Pope, of course, is not the Holy Roman Empire.

An alliance, of course, not being allegiance.

Clovis converted to Catholicism and had an alliance with the Pope. The Holy Roman Empire didn't come into existence for nearly 300 years after Clovis' death.

But this argument ties in nicely with the other one i am having with spearthrower on a different thread, regards to his pointing out my innacuracies regarding "the pope" sending troops to the crusades, with him being of the belief, that the pope has no power to do so.

Yes, the mistake you made on the other thread as opposed to the mistakes you're making on this thread.

At least you're consistently wrong.

fuck the papacy, back in Carolingian times, the pope was not the european political power house he would become from the XI th century on. Rollo may have espôused christianity, but it was for political reasons (like the king refusing to give a duchy to a pagan), basically the same reason why most Norsefolk eventually converted, it made relations with christians easier. but the pope had exactly zilch significance in such matters.

And this is how this information is also helpful for my other argument with Spearthrower, that seems to think there is no connection between the Pope, and british forces in the crusades.

Incoherent gibberish.

Clovis I is a fine example.

Clovis I was only the first

The same fate would also come to the viking Rollo

And another example of an incoherent non-sequitur where you simply open up yet another topic of discussion to be just as wrong about as the one you just abandoned.

I am slowly coming to the opinion that you're here to troll because no one is this thick.

William was also the first king of England,

Wrong.

Svartalf wrote:WTF does Avignon have to do with all this?

Svartalf wrote:
You, sir, are a master of anachonistic statements.

That's a bit unfair - you're minimizing his talents at talking utterly convoluted bollocks.

Spearthrower wrote:

William was also the first king of England,

Wrong.

William the Conquror was the first Norman King of England

was the first Norman King of England https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_the_Conqueror

I can concur he was a conquering king.

Say it five times fast. No mistakes or take a jaigerbomb forfeit.

Maybe, but I will repeat myself, there had been saxon kings of england before that. and william founding a new dynasty in england is of no significance or relevance to anything else in this thread... I have no idea of what you are quite unsuccessfully trying to demonstrate, and I'm getting tired of trying to clean your rubbish.

Nevets wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:

William was also the first king of England,

Wrong.

William the Conquror was the first Norman King of England

was the first Norman King of England https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_the_Conqueror

So not the first King of England then?

Svartalf wrote:Maybe, but I will repeat myself, there had been saxon kings of england before that. and william founding a new dynasty in england is of no significance or relevance to anything else in this thread... I have no idea of what you are quite unsuccessfully trying to demonstrate, and I'm getting tired of trying to clean your rubbish.

That's the only thing you're doing wrong then - why would you get tired of it? It's like participating in an on-going train wreck where no one can actually get hurt. Seeing things pop up and smash down is fun.

Spearthrower wrote:

Nevets wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:

William was also the first king of England,

Wrong.

William the Conquror was the first Norman King of England

was the first Norman King of England https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_the_Conqueror

So not the first King of England then?

But i was not arguing that he was the first king of England.

I was arguing that the popes influence, spread to England in the Norman invasion, when Rollos descendant, William the conqueror, became the first Catholic Norman king of England, with allegiences to the papacy.

The argument is "not" who the first king of England is,
But how it became connected with the pope

It has nothing to do with Æthelstan

King of the Anglo-Saxons from 924 to 927 and King of the English from 927 to 939https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%86thelstan

From House of Wessex.
Nor Ceric I, who was among the first of the anglo-saxons to establish an Anglo-Saxon settlement in Britain, as their leader

is cited in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle as a leader of the Anglo-Saxon settlement of Britain, being the founder and first king of Saxon Wessex, reigning from 519 to 534 AD https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerdic_of_Wessex

Can you please make clear what your argument is Spearthrower, and why you think Cedric I has anything to do with Rollo, or the first Norman king of England, or the Pope?