The Merovingians were definitely NOT associated with the Roman aristocracy and power structure, Clovis carved himself a kingdom out of the mosaic of Germanic territories that had replaced the Roman government, and the way he organized his state, or the legal system he implemented, were purely Germanic and had nothing to do with the Roman system.

The Salians were a tribe or clan that were part of the greater Frankish Volk, in that they identified as Franks before mentioning Salian status, and spoke Frankish rather than a different language/dialect.

and WTF has Arnulf of Metz to do with the price of fish? thed wiki article you quote does state that, even if some contemporaries refer to him as Roman (as in Roman Catholic), he himself identified as Frank. Plus, his alleged descendance from the Merovingians is dubious, and dynastically invalid. Plus, Pepin of Landen's wife being his daughter is not a certitude.

Svartalf wrote:The Merovingians were definitely NOT associated with the Roman aristocracy and power structure, Clovis carved himself a kingdom out of the mosaic of Germanic territories that had replaced the Roman government, and the way he organized his state, or the legal system he implemented, were purely Germanic and had nothing to do with the Roman system.

Of course, Clovis had no allegiences to the Holy Roman Empire

I wonder though, why did this honourable rebel convert to Catholicism?

Initially Frankish paganism, but later converted to Catholic Christianity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clovis_I

I am sure it is only coincidence, that Charlemagne would later take over his merovingian dynasty, and become popes protector

Nevets wrote:

Of course, Clovis had no allegiences to the Holy Roman Empire

It is pretty hard to be allied to things which don't yet exist.

Honorable rebel? WTF do you mean? he was no rebel, he was an independent king who conquered neighbouring countries. and he converted to christianity for political reasons.

Sendraks wrote:

Nevets wrote:

Of course, Clovis had no allegiences to the Holy Roman Empire

It is pretty hard to be allied to things which don't yet exist.

you mean no longer?

Sendraks wrote:

Nevets wrote:

Of course, Clovis had no allegiences to the Holy Roman Empire

It is pretty hard to be allied to things which don't yet exist.

True, but he was born within the Roman empire, that did still exist

Tournai, Roman Empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clovis_I

Svartalf wrote:

Sendraks wrote:

Nevets wrote:

Of course, Clovis had no allegiences to the Holy Roman Empire

It is pretty hard to be allied to things which don't yet exist.

you mean no longer?

In the context of Clovis, he couldn't be allied to the HRE as it did not exist at that point in time.

Sendraks wrote:

Svartalf wrote:

Sendraks wrote:

Nevets wrote:

Of course, Clovis had no allegiences to the Holy Roman Empire

It is pretty hard to be allied to things which don't yet exist.

you mean no longer?

In the context of Clovis, he couldn't be allied to the HRE as it did not exist at that point in time.

I am going to give you a minute or two to prepair for this. But i have "the" Ace card....Will be revealed in next 60 seconds

lol

Sendraks wrote:

Svartalf wrote:

Sendraks wrote:

Nevets wrote:

Of course, Clovis had no allegiences to the Holy Roman Empire

It is pretty hard to be allied to things which don't yet exist.

you mean no longer?

In the context of Clovis, he couldn't be allied to the HRE as it did not exist at that point in time.

Royal Flush

Clovis I, king of the Franks, was the first important barbarian ruler to convert to Catholicism rather than Arianism, allying himself with the papacy.(55) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope#Nica ... %80%931054)

The Western Roman empire did still exist at the time of Clovis' birth (c 465) but Tournai had not been a part of it for some time. He was born in his father's kingdom, not in a Roman province.

Svartalf wrote:The Western Roman empire did still exist at the time of Clovis' birth (c 465) but Tournai had not been a part of it for some time. He was born in his father's kingdom, not in a Roman province.

Clovis was loyal to the Papacy.
The papacy were already formed by now

Clovis I, king of the Franks, was the first important barbarian ruler to convert to Catholicism rather than Arianism, allying himself with the papacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clovis_I

That is why he was one of the earliest kings to convert to Catholicism

Svartalf wrote:The Western Roman empire did still exist at the time of Clovis' birth (c 465) but Tournai had not been a part of it for some time. He was born in his father's kingdom, not in a Roman province.

Clovis was loyal to the Papacy.
The papacy were already formed by now

Clovis I, king of the Franks, was the first important barbarian ruler to convert to Catholicism rather than Arianism, allying himself with the papacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clovis_I

That is why he was one of the earliest kings to convert to Catholicism

Nevets wrote:

Svartalf wrote:The Western Roman empire did still exist at the time of Clovis' birth (c 465) but Tournai had not been a part of it for some time. He was born in his father's kingdom, not in a Roman province.

Clovis was loyal to the Papacy.
The papacy were already formed by now

Clovis I, king of the Franks, was the first important barbarian ruler to convert to Catholicism rather than Arianism, allying himself with the papacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clovis_I

That is why he was one of the earliest kings to convert to Catholicism

the link of Clovis to the papacy was one of mutual support, not one of subservience. Actually, if there was subservience, it might have been on the pope's part, as Rome had major trouble with most Germans subscribing to Arianism, and without Clovis' support, catholicism might very well have become extinct in the course of the 6th century.

Nevets wrote:

Royal Flush

Clovis I, king of the Franks, was the first important barbarian ruler to convert to Catholicism rather than Arianism, allying himself with the papacy.(55) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope#Nica ... %80%931054)

Yes, that is certainly a grand turd that needs to be flushed.

Allying with the papacy =/= allying with the HRE.

Sendraks wrote:

Nevets wrote:

Of course, Clovis had no allegiences to the Holy Roman Empire

It is pretty hard to be allied to things which don't yet exist.

Nevets wrote:

Sendraks wrote:

Svartalf wrote:

Sendraks wrote:

It is pretty hard to be allied to things which don't yet exist.

you mean no longer?

In the context of Clovis, he couldn't be allied to the HRE as it did not exist at that point in time.

Royal Flush

Clovis I, king of the Franks, was the first important barbarian ruler to convert to Catholicism rather than Arianism, allying himself with the papacy.(55) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope#Nica ... %80%931054)

I don't think that says what you think that says.

Spearthrower wrote:

Nevets wrote:

Sendraks wrote:

Svartalf wrote:
you mean no longer?

In the context of Clovis, he couldn't be allied to the HRE as it did not exist at that point in time.

Royal Flush

Clovis I, king of the Franks, was the first important barbarian ruler to convert to Catholicism rather than Arianism, allying himself with the papacy.(55) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope#Nica ... %80%931054)

I don't think that says what you think that says.

"think", i "think" it says?

Ah! I see the bar is open!

I'll have a pint of bitter if you've got, landlord.