Keep It Real wrote:

Arnold Layne wrote:

Keep It Real wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:
Actually, I think the point is that the believer knows they need not fear hell because, of course, they're the good guys. Thus, heaven is by far the bigger draw. Hell is what's used to bully and intimidate others.

If a Muslim were to shirk their duty of Jihad, they would be one of the "others" would they not?

Not really. Most don't believe joining a jihad is necessary to go to heaven. In fact, doesn't matter what religion a believer has. They each think that they are the most likely to go to heaven, because they have a covenantal relationship with their god, ensuring that they are doing exactly what is needed to go to heaven. Simples!

If Jihadis didn't think they needed to make Jihad in order to go to heaven then that rather goes against the idea they are motivated by 72 virgins. If I had to choose which of the two options were a bigger motivator; 72 virgins or avoiding infinite suffering the latter would be the bigger motivator by an...infinite margin. It'd be a good idea to make Jihad (as it is most commonly understood - holy war) in order to avoid infinite suffering.

You seem to be randomly swapping from Muslim to jihadi. They are not the same set.

Spearthrower wrote: The fear of going to hell might prevent them from breaking some rule, but it doesn't motivate their daily existence unless they're total crackpots.

Which the people in question surely are.
Not, I hasten to add, that their brains haven't already been addled for them.

Keep It Real wrote:I read the first 200 pages of the Quran and counted 105 references to hell. It seems a much more frequent and engrained tenet than for Xtianity or indeed any other religion I'm aware of.

Hell is a not a Biblical assertion. For Christianity it's a post-Bible-formation one; wonder if it developed as a notion in Christianity at the same time Islam was being 'developed'.

In Norse mythology, Hel is a being who presides over a realm (of the same name),in which she receives a portion of the dead.

I think its a 12th or 13th century thing ... Did it get later incorporated in Christianity or Islam? Did Norse mythology get the concept from them? Did all three develop the concept from another belief-system, or concurrently?

Oeditor wrote:

Spearthrower wrote: The fear of going to hell might prevent them from breaking some rule, but it doesn't motivate their daily existence unless they're total crackpots.

Which the people in question surely are.
Not, I hasten to add, that their brains haven't already been addled for them.

That's kind of what I meant - the lunatic fringe might see hellfire whenever they shut their eyes, and imagine their enemies being tortured forever more, but humans generally have a great capacity for blocking out possible negative outcomes and focusing on the potential benefits.

RealityRules wrote:

Keep It Real wrote:I read the first 200 pages of the Quran and counted 105 references to hell. It seems a much more frequent and engrained tenet than for Xtianity or indeed any other religion I'm aware of.

Hell is a not a Biblical assertion. For Christianity it's a post-Bible-formation one; wonder if it developed as a notion in Christianity at the same time Islam was being 'developed'.

In Norse mythology, Hel is a being who presides over a realm (of the same name),in which she receives a portion of the dead.

I think its a 12th or 13th century thing ... Did it get later incorporated in Christianity or Islam? Did Norse mythology get the concept from them? Did all three develop the concept from another belief-system, or concurrently?

Actually, there are plenty of references in the Bible about hell - John, Daniel, Matthew, Mark, and of course Revelation.

It's Jews who don't really have a hell - they've got Sheol, but it's more like purgatory.

I think their motivation has much more do do with a combination of a extreme need to belong and the choosing of a particularly malignant ideology and belief system.

laklak wrote:Is it just the 72 virgins who don't shit, or everyone? I can't see the attraction of a heaven without a good, satisfying dump, but maybe if I spent my toilet time squatting in a desert, watching for scorpions and scraping my arse with pebbles I'd feel differently. Just think how history would differ if some dude had invented tampons and 2-ply bog roll in 200 AD.

I do wonder if all the world's problems might be solved by doing modernism properly, and getting rid of the side effects of doing it badly - fundamentalism, inequality, global warming, poverty., lack of access to sanitation..