Rachel Bronwyn wrote:I'm not convinced this woman was some poor, oppressed soul growing up in secular Germany. Perhaps she was. I see no evidence for it though. If I got naked for some girlie magezine my parents would consider it tasteless too. That's hardly evidence my upbringing was repressive though.

Beatsong wrote:

Animavore wrote:It's not a matter of 'letting' ones daughter do porn. It's about giving them freedom of choice.

And Sila Sahin's parents imposed upon her freedom of choice how, exactly?

Any evidence of a single thing they actually did to stop her from appearing on the cover?

Or is the problem just that they had the temerity to express their dislike of it (so we are supposed to believe - I haven't so far seen an interview or even any direct quotes from them, just a load of suggestion and assumption from The Sun).

"Parents disapprove of daughter's career choice." Well HOLD THE FRONT PAGE! Such shocking "abuse" never happened before the muslims started invading!!!

A kebab shop owner, asked on German TV what he would do if Sila were his daughter, replied: "I would kill her. I really mean that. That doesn't fit with my culture."

Shrunk wrote:Let's not lose sight of the more pertinent issue WRT to Islam and its attitudes towards women here:

A kebab shop owner, asked on German TV what he would do if Sila were his daughter, replied: "I would kill her. I really mean that. That doesn't fit with my culture."

Is this guy expressing views that are more likely to be endorsed by Mulsims than members of other cultural groups? If so, are the teachings of Islam the reason for this?

Mazille wrote:

cherries wrote:here is the kebab owner as quoted in the star

Nonsense.

What he said was that she is a Muslima from a Muslim country with Muslim parents and ancestors and that what she did was "the wrongest thing she could do" and that he would spit in her face if he met her. The second bloke basically said:"I can drink alcohol and take drugs, but it's wrong to make others do it.", presumably drawing a comparison between getting your tits out and drinking alcohol and severely overestimating the influence some starlet has on other people.

Beatsong wrote:I don't understand German, but what Mazille seems to be saying is that he never actually SAID he would kill her at all. The worst he said is that he would spit in her face.

Is this right? In which case what the fuck are we even discussing here?

Sila Sahin appealed to fans

The actress calls the insults regarding set origin or religion.

Just over two weeks caused Sila Sahin as the first Turkish woman ever on the cover of Playboy a sensation. Silas not only parents but also many Muslims were shocked and reacted with outrage. On the Internet, Turk was partly insulted in the worst way.
Now, the 25-year-old has spoken out on Facebook and invited fans to set the insults. Sila Sahin appealed, no such photos be conditional on whether you are Turkish or not.

Next said Sila, "I want to ask that you not insult each other, I do not mind, that ye expressed to my Playboy outing, but I will not tolerate any insults about race or religion I do not make differences between German and! Turkish ".

Sila Sahin is known for her starring role in the television series Good Times, Bad Times. Since 2009, Sila plays the role of Ayla Özgül. Privately, the young Turkish woman with her fellow actors Jörn Schlönvoigt together.

http://www.vaybee.de/deutsch/channel/lifestyle/sila-sahin-appelliert-an-fans-101151.php

Beatsong wrote:Presuming you mean the first, I think the "proper response" is to remember that there are millions, possibly billions of individuals all over the world, in all countries and cultures, who are uneducated, a bit thuggish and tend to express themselves in aggressive ways that offend our sensibilities. To remember that you can probably find plenty of people not just talking about spitting in the face of those they disapprove of, but actually doing it, in the rougher pubs and streets of England on any Saturday night. And to remember that phrases like "I would spit in her face" are often used figuratively and emotionally anyway, and don't necessarily correspond to how a person would act.

But most of all, to remember that in terms of making generalisations about millions of people from a variety of cultures and countries worldwide, and earnestly dissecting how we should act against or respond to those generalisations, THE WORDS OF ONE RANDOM BLOKE, WHO ISN'T EVEN IN ANY WAY CONNECTED WITH THE STORY, INTERVIEWED IN A FOREIGN LANGUAGE AND THEN MISQUOTED BY A BRITISH GUTTER RAG, have about as much significance as the pimple on my arse.

Playboy's Muslim Cover Girl: Is Sila Sahin Good for Women?

by Asra Q. Nomani

Actress Sila Sahin has sparked outrage as the first Turkish woman to pose for Playboy—but perhaps her rebellion will inspire other Muslims to define modesty and honor for themselves, says Asra Q. Nomani.

German-Muslim actress Sila Sahin, 25, is causing quite a stir as the first Turkish woman to undress for Playboy, posing in the May issue of the magazine's German edition. "For me, these pictures are an act of liberation from the cultural constraints of my childhood," the star of the German soap opera Good Times, Bad Times told Playboy. "I have tried to please everybody for too long. With these images I want to show young Turkish women that it is OK to live the way they are, that it is not cheap to show skin, that you should pursue your goals instead of bowing down to others."
I'm not a fan of porn as a symbol of empowerment, but as a Muslim woman, hearing divinely sanctioned mandates all my life about what a good Muslim girl looks like, I can understand why Sahin has responded to our community sanctions about honor, shame and modesty by stripping—and why members of her family have ostracized her for it. The battle over the Muslim woman's body is a debate over a simple Islamic concept: awrah (or awra), an Arabic word that refers to the zones of women and men forbidden from the public eye. While it's an equal opportunity word, it's the excuse some Muslim men use to subordinate, silence, segregate and cloak women from Afghanistan to Seattle, Washington.




And in fact, Sahin's decision to pose for the nudie mag may mark an important milestone on Muslim women's path to defining awrah for themselves. Recently, France banned the veil—in part because it perpetuates the notion that a woman's body is forbidden. Sahin's exhibitionism takes this concept to an extreme. Yet similar to how American women responded to the sexually repressive mores of the 1950s with the sexual revolution of the 1960s, only to find a happy medium of sexual freedom in the decades that followed, perhaps acts like Sahin's will prove liberating.
I can relate to rebelling against my community's standards of modesty—and to finding a middle ground. I come from an ultraconservative Muslim family in which my mother wore the full-on black face veil and shroud until she married into my father's family, and my feminist grandmother literally ripped the veil from her face.
Yet we lived by conservative standards. When I was about 9, growing up in Piscataway, New Jersey, my father, a wonderful but traditional man, told me I couldn't bare my legs anymore, so I slipped on pants below the frocks my mother had hand-stitched. Later, as a teen in Morgantown, West Virginia, as a runner on my high school's cross-country team, though I wore shorts, I put on a T-shirt under my sleeveless Morgantown Mohigan uniform so I wouldn't run with the bare arms I was told I was forbidden to show. At graduation, I was the only teen with pants beneath her graduation gown.

As a Muslim woman, I can understand why Sahin has responded to our community sanctions about honor, shame and modesty by stripping.

As a 21 year old, I staged my first act of awrah disobedience on my college graduation day as an undergrad from West Virginia University: for the time since my youth, I wore a skirt and blouse, borrowed from my independent thinking mother's clothing boutique. Still, the skirt fell to my ankles. Then came my big bang of rebellion: in my late-20s, I challenged all orthodoxy by being the first woman in my ancestry (as far as I could figure) to wear a bikini. I chased volleyballs in a blue Speedo two-piece, in front of my father, as I played in a tournament on a New Jersey beach. My father, though horrified, didn't make a big deal out of it. And, sure enough, the experimentation of my youth settled down into my own sense of modesty in my 40s.
Of course, challenging awrah is a complicated task, in part because the concept is so open for interpretation. The word sounds like "aura," and it's similarly amorphous. The understandings of what makes for a woman's awrah can amount to everything about the woman, from her voice to her sheer presence, based on the strictest interpretations of Islam. In its most extreme form, the debate over a woman's awrah defines rulings regarding gender segregation at mosques and headscarves, marriage, driving, social mobility, sex and even so-called honor killings. A publication by a group linked to the hard-line Salafi interpretation of Islam said women who expose their awrah even to other women "will not enter al Jannah," the Arabic word for heaven.
The emergence of Playboy's first Muslim cover girl underscores a dilemma for us in society as we try to assert women's rights, negotiating competing ideologies that are rooted in one common theme: the hypersexualization of women. To me, protecting women's freedom doesn't mean accepting philosophies that define women by their sexuality, veiled or bare-naked. But as Muslim women take bold steps to make the forbidden commonplace, perhaps they will help others make tiny rebellions of their own—to everyone's benefit.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2011-05-01/playboys-muslim-cover-girl-does-sila-sahin-help-women/

Beatsong wrote:

Shrunk wrote:Let's not lose sight of the more pertinent issue WRT to Islam and its attitudes towards women here:

A kebab shop owner, asked on German TV what he would do if Sila were his daughter, replied: "I would kill her. I really mean that. That doesn't fit with my culture."

Is this guy expressing views that are more likely to be endorsed by Mulsims than members of other cultural groups? If so, are the teachings of Islam the reason for this?

Well you're not going to get an answer to that that isn't completely circular and self-serving. Those who have already decided that most muslims are fanatical murderers will happy seize upon the words of some Arabic-looking Joe Bloggs interviewed on German TV in a language they don't understand as "proof" of the fact. Those of who haven't, won't. I'm not sure how one measures objectively how likely an attitude is to be endorsed by a "cultural group" as widespread and diverse as muslims, and as consistently reported with ridiculous levels of sensationalism and bias in the media (this very story being a case in point).

Personally, I can't really say I care. He's some fuckin' random kebab shop owner, he speaks for noone but himself. I wonder how many people they had to interview to find the response they wanted?

arugula wrote:

Beatsong wrote:

But most of all, to remember that in terms of making generalisations about millions of people from a variety of cultures and countries worldwide, and earnestly dissecting how we should act against or respond to those generalisations, THE WORDS OF ONE RANDOM BLOKE, WHO ISN'T EVEN IN ANY WAY CONNECTED WITH THE STORY, INTERVIEWED IN A FOREIGN LANGUAGE AND THEN MISQUOTED BY A BRITISH GUTTER RAG, have about as much significance as the pimple on my arse.

This could be a false generalization itself. My criticism is directed at any opinion I find especially vulgar, particularly when it's leveled at someone expressing her freedom of speech. It's precisely because I think individual rights are practically sacred, that anyone's expressed opinion deserves scrutiny and response. Everyone? Well, let's begin with anyone with balls enough to express that crass opinion on camera or to a newspaper, shall we? His words and his orangutan emanations become fair game. Now, in addition to that, if his sentiment was misconstrued to be something more vulgar than it actually was, then to him I say: too fucking bad, my friend. Embarrassment may be your ticket out of an embarrassing mentality. It happens.

If the issue happens to be women's rights - and this is my own take on the subject - show the slightest inkling of an opinion that women are: the property of men, the property of their families, subject to the mandates of a patriarchal religion or culture, and/or dirty because they are women (naked or not, mind you)... then tread this rhetorical expanse at your own peril. Don't cry when a million voices come raining down upon your ignorant head. And why? Because enough is enough. I not only look forward to the moment in our species' history when the assumed, incorporated subordination of women is a thing of the past - I think it's possibly the most important social undertaking facing us.

And sure, we're just talking about words. And the vitriol that they incite also takes the form of: words. If the bumbling misogynists of the world (and to preempt: misogynists, like most people, mean well) suffer bruised feelings, that doesn't move me. They get plenty of support from people (possibly yourself included) going out of their way to defend their callousness as a sort of momentary, drunk, or mentally deficient sputtering.

That's regarding the man himself.

To the generalization of "millions"... that's almost beside the point. One should be criticizing an idea or ideology. If it happens to be close to the hearts of billions, that's of no concern at all. Ideas live or die because individuals nurture or deprive them of nurturing.

Without blubbering further on that, I'll just ask... do you consider the criticism of Islamic ideas about women (taken as a whole) as part of your protestations?

cherries wrote:article from the daily beast.

[snip]

Beatsong wrote:

cherries wrote:article from the daily beast.

[snip]

Thanks. Interesting article there by a muslim, expressing support for the model and a subtle, nuanced approach to the complexities of the issue.

Who's have thought it possible? It's almost like there are lots of different muslims who have a variety of viewpoints...

SPMaximus wrote:Shes pretty

if she needs a place to hide from the zerman muslims, she is welcome to come and live with me

cherries wrote:

Beatsong wrote:

cherries wrote:article from the daily beast.

[snip]

Thanks. Interesting article there by a muslim, expressing support for the model and a subtle, nuanced approach to the complexities of the issue.

Who's have thought it possible? It's almost like there are lots of different muslims who have a variety of viewpoints...

when it comes to the crunch as a muslim you will never condone what sila sahin has done,you might tolerate it but that's all.
that's the problem with islam that even the most tolerant people can't get away from the basic tenets of the religion.