I do not understand how Sharia can be implemented at a state level without the removal of the existing Human Rights legislation. Oh that's right - Human Rights are removed.

I think it is time for Europe's fastest growing philosophy i.e. the non-religion/non-theism/atheism of secular humanism to start to push for even more extensive use of the existing framework of law (vis-a-vis the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 under the racially/religiously aggravated offences) to get these people off the streets and back behind bars.

Society has to face the facts that Islam believes in an invisible entity that has no evidence and use this as their authority. Their Holy Book is claimed to be from this God but without a shred of evidence of this their holy book has no intrinsic value. Where implemented today Islamic countries are the basket cases of human development.

They are overall anti-Humanity, anti-Science, anti-Enlightenment. This is a rebirth of a cult of Islamic Thuggee scaled up to satisfy a lust to strangle human purpose for their god, Allah, and replace that purpose with one purpose of worship of their god.

bioeng wrote:

byofrcs wrote:I do not understand how Sharia can be implemented at a state level without the removal of the existing Human Rights legislation. Oh that's right - Human Rights are removed.

I think it is time for Europe's fastest growing philosophy i.e. the non-religion/non-theism/atheism of secular humanism to start to push for even more extensive use of the existing framework of law (vis-a-vis the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 under the racially/religiously aggravated offences) to get these people off the streets and back behind bars.

Society has to face the facts that Islam believes in an invisible entity that has no evidence and use this as their authority. Their Holy Book is claimed to be from this God but without a shred of evidence of this their holy book has no intrinsic value. Where implemented today Islamic countries are the basket cases of human development.

They are overall anti-Humanity, anti-Science, anti-Enlightenment. This is a rebirth of a cult of Islamic Thuggee scaled up to satisfy a lust to strangle human purpose for their god, Allah, and replace that purpose with one purpose of worship of their god.

Are you not exaggerating? My bold.

Fertility rates in the Muslim world are still higher and they continue to pour into European countries as immigrants. I find it hard to believe that secular humanism and irreligion is growing faster than Islam.

In absolute numbers ? Non-religion is growing much more than Islam. I think in the UK Islam is 3% of the population and so from the 1980s onwards that's what it's managed to get to but non-religion in the UK has gone from, for example in 1985, 34% through to the current 51% according to the British Social Attitudes survey.

The census paints a subtly different picture putting non-religion at 15.1% for the 2001 census but there are so few datapoints to get a trend because the Census has traditionally avoid religion. The census does say that the unemployment rate for Muslims is the highest.

It's a pretty useless religion. It seems to be useless at a state level and useless at a personal level. They are also useless at maths.

bioeng wrote:

byofrcs wrote:

bioeng wrote:

Are you not exaggerating? My bold.

Fertility rates in the Muslim world are still higher and they continue to pour into European countries as immigrants. I find it hard to believe that secular humanism and irreligion is growing faster than Islam.

In absolute numbers ? Non-religion is growing much more than Islam. I think in the UK Islam is 3% of the population and so from the 1980s onwards that's what it's managed to get to but non-religion in the UK has gone from, for example in 1985, 34% through to the current 51% according to the British Social Attitudes survey.

The census paints a subtly different picture putting non-religion at 15.1% for the 2001 census but there are so few datapoints to get a trend because the Census has traditionally avoid religion. The census does say that the unemployment rate for Muslims is the highest.

It's a pretty useless religion. It seems to be useless at a state level and useless at a personal level. They are also useless at maths.

http://features.pewforum.org/muslim-population-graphic/#/United%20Kingdom

My sources tell me that the UK had barely 2% in 1990, 4.6% in 2010, and that their population is projected to be greater than 8% in 2030. If we assume that your sources are correct about the growth of secular humanism and irreligion, at some point just by mathematical inevitability, the attrition rate of people abandoning Christianity will decline and the growth in absolute numbers will plummet, whereas Muslim population growth, which primarily stems from immigration and fertility can continue to rise. This is why I think secular civilization is in serious trouble. Plus, are fundamentalist Christians any less determined to get rid of radical Islamist ideologies and Sharia Law than secular humanists? So my point is, if an "Islamophobic" Christian nutjob loses his religion and embraces secularism but continues to oppose political Islam, does that really strengthen opposition to Islamism?

I don't mean to sound like a pessimist, and I certainly hope you are correct, but it seems to me that humanity is headed towards enduring another round of many centuries of the dark ages and that atheism, secular humanism and irreligion in general is doomed, particularly if the religious folks in Christianity and Islam continue to breed and encourage large families, denounce contraception/abortion/family planning. That, and of course the Muslim population in Europe and around the world seems to become more radicalized as time passes by ever since the early 1970s, which would make them less susceptible to reason and critical thinking. I haven't seen any positive changes in Islam for the last 40 years. All I've seen is Sharia LAw spreading like wildfire in almost every corner of the globe. I've seen almost no substantive change in the opposite direction.

Well the PewForum loves God and their polls are biased but even if it was 8.2% by 2030 - extrapolating non-religious growth (flattening it out) they will still remain a minority and under 10% (a known trigger point for ideas). We know that Muslims will lie on any polls and census because there is no way that Islam makes sense other than as an imposed regime. In so-called Islamic countries that claim very high percentage Muslim this is coerced or imposed. It is like Communist countries and non-religion. People are forced to be that. For instance in Malaysia if you want to be a Malay then you are assumed Muslim and you can't be anything else. This is state-sponsored racism. If the force is removed then they ping back to a much more organic levels. It is reasonable to say that these Pew figures are overcounting the numbers.

Fortunately Muslims have made a fundamental blunder (which the Christian churches made too) in claiming that the Qur'an correlates with science. Christianity finally learnt and now (at least) the European churches pretty well go with anything Science says; Aliens ? - Yup Jesus would be OK with them, Evolution ? yup that's God, Big Bang ? - yup God again, and so on and on.

Islam on the other hand has a different approach to science saying that it was already stated in the Qur'an. Even when this is pointed out to them that is crap they are in denial. Now in an Islamic country they can hit you - they can't do that in Western countries.

In a Western democracy the Muslims will be loud and obnoxious because they know they can't beat you and they don't count at the polls. This is why the Sharia lot have democracy in their gunsights; they know they need to screw democracy.

It has kind of worked the other way for the non-religious/atheist because we've been quiet and yet have grown in numbers at a rapid rate because Religion doesn't make sense. Religion isn't suddenly going to discover anything new that wasn't known 6000 years ago so its unlikely to make sense ever again.

Our Post-enlightenment Reason has won and I don't see reason going away any more than the General Theory of Relativity. It is something we've discovered and it works. It's not always used by everyone but it can't be avoided when it really matters.

So unless Jesus returns saying, "oh by the way, I forgot to mention..." we're in for many millennium of kick-ass science and technology because,

bioeng wrote:

byofrcs wrote:

Islam on the other hand has a different approach to science saying that it was already stated in the Qur'an. Even when this is pointed out to them that is crap they are in denial. Now in an Islamic country they can hit you - they can't do that in Western countries.

I think more effort needs to be made to systematically address that "scientific miracles" bull claimed by Mohammedan apologists. The internet is littered with that, and it hasn't been put under as much scrutiny as the Kalam arguments or intelligent design. Then again, that may because Christianity is still generally a greater nuisance in the secular countries.

If we could get a UK government science advisory board to do this then this would be a coup. In the end it is to protect the public. The government is usually slow to interfere with religious claims as they are subjective but where a religion starts to make objective claims that are contradicted by science of the day then like the nonsense of homeopathy and other quack medicines the government has a duty of care to correct this.