What is Sura 2:23 all about?

John

Ta

zurina wrote:Why do you joined Islam? And becoming a Shia, on top of that?

Just a curious question; I'm a Sunni and not very well-versed in Shia matters. They're quite different; i.e. in the term of conducting solat. But if you have any question (referring to Muslims life, that is), I'll try to answer some of it.

I think I explain quite well in the thread? The wisdom of fasting in Ramadan was a main reason, the sense of community...solidarity with the bombed of Iraq...lots of reasons.

However I have become convinced Islam isn't possible for me because of, again, lots of reasons, but mainly I oppose a global caliphate which the "no God but Allah" part necessitates. I also don't believe in the hereafter (heaven or hell) so people on an Islamic forum said I wasn't a muslim. You can be a Christian and not believe in Heaven + hell though...weird.

Welcome to the forum! Peaceout.

byofrcs wrote:

I asked how such new Sura could be judged. The other Muslims refused to answer this question. They just said that it cannot be done, but when asked to help, as per Sura 2:23 they are like cockroaches scuttling away from the light.

They do not want to help. It is my belief that sura can be produced by man and jinn (well actually machines) by using crowd-sourced feedback from Muslims. They just don't want to help though.

Haha, it's obvious that most would probably run away if you were to ask such question Unfortunately such question should directed someone who have more knowledge than just ilm' tafsir, and such kind doesn't exist conveniently on Net (since they're type to shy away from anything 'modern').

I really wished I could help you, but I don't have the knowledge on it for now. How about if I try to ask my religious teachers about it? Maybe they could shed at least a little bit of light rather than none.

Juliuseizure wrote:
I think I explain quite well in the thread? The wisdom of fasting in Ramadan was a main reason, the sense of community...solidarity with the bombed of Iraq...lots of reasons.

However I have become convinced Islam isn't possible for me because of, again, lots of reasons, but mainly I oppose a global caliphate which the "no God but Allah" part necessitates. I also don't believe in the hereafter (heaven or hell) so people on an Islamic forum said I wasn't a muslim. You can be a Christian and not believe in Heaven + hell though...weird.

Welcome to the forum! Peaceout.

Ahaha.. let's just say after reading the first few posts, I skipped to the last one. My bad

Well at least I don't have to explain much about fasting then. The brotherhood in Islam is quite tight-knit; even if a new Muslim from another place come to a different Muslim community, he/she will always be welcomed warmly. The Hajj is a great example about the brotherhood.

On the caliphates, it's mainly comes the lack of better examples. I mean- a caliphate that follows the Koran and as-Sunnah, implementing the sharia law as well as recognizes the rights of non-Muslims as their citizens is a rare thing. Believing in Hereafter is the fifth Pillar of Iman; most Muslims never really questioned about it since they don't have the courage to do it. I can understand their sentiments; but for the ones new to Islam, it is something to be wonder about. Don't worry about others, just take your time to understand on the concept of hereafter. No one is born all-knowingly.

The Ramadan is coming; are you prepared for it?

Thanks for the warm welcome and hopefully I'm not too late to say: Welcome to Islam, my new brother May Allah guide us in our journey to seek better understanding of our faith.

It's beginning to sound like -
Angels exist because the Quran says so.
Jinn exists because the Quran says so.
Paradise and Hell exist because the Quran says so.

I would imagine there is is not much of a debate to be had with a Muslim about these things so perhaps the real discussion is about the divinity of the Quran and whether it's possible that it was written and assembled by men only.

BTW I would avoid sentence like your last one, although well intentioned they are assumed to be preaching. We know you are a Muslim now and that is fine. Any thoughts you have for us are best kept between you and your God.

John

z8000783 wrote:It's beginning to sound like -
Angels exist because the Quran says so.
Jinn exists because the Quran says so.
Paradise and Hell exist because the Quran says so.

I would imagine there is is not much of a debate to be had with a Muslim about these things so perhaps the real discussion is about the divinity of the Quran and whether it's possible that it was written and assembled by men only.

BTW I would avoid sentence like your last one, although well intentioned they are assumed to be preaching. We know you are a Muslim now and that is fine. Any thoughts you have for us are best kept between you and your God.

John

Well, all Muslim's faith is literally based on the Al-Quran; so its common that most evidences should come form the book itself right To debate whether it is written and assembled by men, and its divinity is not one of my better fields; I pretty much feel regretful now for skipping religious classes during high school Though its not that I'm running away from the debate, I just need time to do more research about it. Maybe not for now, maybe I'll get on it soon.

Ah sorry for that. I didn't really meant to preach; but wishing good for others is rather a habit for me. Take it as a figurative speech then.

byofrcs wrote:
If you are in Malaysia then I would avoid doing that so obviously if I was you. It is too risky. Keep it anonymous. Don't use Sura 2:23 as your reference but use another sura (the one about all of man and the djinn). Malaysia is supposed to be secular but Islam is the official religion and it's too tied up with national identity.

Well, it's not really much of a concern about it to me. My teachers are always open to me; it's just the matter asking them about it politely and not making a fuss out of it. I'll try to be cautious about it, thanks for the reminder. So far I have yet to deal Islam fanatics, but most of my peers avoid to talk about faith. So it's sort of disheartening when people ask them questions like yours, they would simply ignore it and continue to be in ignorance. I doubt Malaysia is secular; one of the National Principle, or 'Rukun Negara' incited belief in god(s).

But yeah, curiosity kills the cat; I'll try to keep it low for now.

zurina wrote:

z8000783 wrote:It's beginning to sound like -
Angels exist because the Quran says so.
Jinn exists because the Quran says so.
Paradise and Hell exist because the Quran says so.

I would imagine there is is not much of a debate to be had with a Muslim about these things so perhaps the real discussion is about the divinity of the Quran and whether it's possible that it was written and assembled by men only.

BTW I would avoid sentence like your last one, although well intentioned they are assumed to be preaching. We know you are a Muslim now and that is fine. Any thoughts you have for us are best kept between you and your God.

John

Well, all Muslim's faith is literally based on the Al-Quran; so its common that most evidences should come form the book itself right To debate whether it is written and assembled by men, and its divinity is not one of my better fields; I pretty much feel regretful now for skipping religious classes during high school Though its not that I'm running away from the debate, I just need time to do more research about it. Maybe not for now, maybe I'll get on it soon.

Did you get a chance to see the video I posted about critical thinking and scepticism? I appreciate you may wish to do more research but the fact is you are not thinking of becalming a Muslim, you are one now, so presumably you have already accepted the the Quran is the literal word of God. I am just wondering what the arguments for this are that you currently accept . There must be something that maintains your belief in Allah otherwise you would stop believing this to be true.

zurina wrote:Ah sorry for that. I didn't really meant to preach; but wishing good for others is rather a habit for me. Take it as a figurative speech then.

No problem for me with that but if you have good wishes for people here then they would be more appreciated if they came directly from yourself rather than asking Allah to do it for you.

John

zurina wrote:Well, all Muslim's faith is literally based on the Al-Quran; so its common that most evidences should come form the book itself right To debate whether it is written and assembled by men, and its divinity is not one of my better fields; I pretty much feel regretful now for skipping religious classes during high school Though its not that I'm running away from the debate, I just need time to do more research about it. Maybe not for now, maybe I'll get on it soon.

We discussed this quite a bit last year. You might find some interesting links in this thread: http://www.rationalskepticism.org/islam/qur-anic-origins-and-immutability-t3001.html

Wise beyond his years this padwan is.

Que-gon John

z8000783 wrote:
Did you get a chance to see the video I posted about critical thinking and scepticism? I appreciate you may wish to do more research but the fact is you are not thinking of becalming a Muslim, you are one now, so presumably you have already accepted the the Quran is the literal word of God. I am just wondering what the arguments for this are that you currently accept . There must be something that maintains your belief in Allah otherwise you would stop believing this to be true.

Ah, I have yet to see the video; busy times. I'll try to squeeze some time to watch it. On the reason why I could take the Quran as the literal word of God.. I can't really explain it in words; but I could tell why I can still maintained my belief while joining RatSkep.

I often questioned myself; if one dies doing goods after living a life of misery while another dies oppressing others yet lived a wealthy life, then where's the justice in Al-Hakem (The Judge; one of Allah's 99 names) and Al-Adl (The Just) if Heaven and Hell never exist? Since everything created (humans, djinns, Hereafter etc. etc.) by Him should have at least a purpose, then if God never exist are we just meaningless beings created out of coincidence? I prefer not to risk my whole life ending up in Hell for eternity if they truly exist as said in the Quran. If not, then at least I could die happily knowing that I've lived my life in virtuous way even it may not be perfect.

I never really intend to preach; instead I'd rather go according to one of my favorite sura:

Say : O Disbeliever! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine.

I'll continue believing what I wish to believe, and I won't bother others who wish to believe their own beliefs; sharing of informations won't be a problem as long as we can be decent to each other.

z8000783 wrote:
No problem for me with that but if you have good wishes for people here then they would be more appreciated if they came directly from yourself rather than asking Allah to do it for you.

Haha, true enough. I'll avoid using them then.

Oeditor wrote:We discussed this quite a bit last year. You might find some interesting links in this thread: http://www.rationalskepticism.org/islam/qur-anic-origins-and-immutability-t3001.html

I'll add this to my reading list; I just need to find a longer time to sit in front of the computer if possible.

byofrcs wrote:Just remember that a trap is open and it is inviting. Walk in, trigger it, and clunk - you're dead.

Always poke a stick into an open mind as you would an open trap. If it is safe then walk in. If not then step back.

Well, I've managed to coax an answer from my religious teacher (and a close friend of mine). It seems that to verify a new Sura (the newly created ones; not the original), you need to examine the level of Arabic poetry in it. If it couldn't match the harmony of the original Suras, then it is considered invalid. More or less, you need to have a mad, inhumane skill in Arabic as well as in grammars, vocabs and obviously pure talent in Arabic poetry. The meaning and contents of the Sura itself must carry truth that can lasted forever and not be denied if there's newer discoveries to be made on it.

My friend said the alphabets and words in Quran itself have their own unique sequence. Some of the examples can be viewed here: http://www.kaheel7.com/eng/index.php/numeric-miracle/61-number-7-in-the-holy-quran

And besides, even if you DO managed to make a Sura that can equally matched with the current ones; it will be immediately rejected anyway since the Quran itself is the completed revelation by God. The source itself naturally protected by writings and the hafizs (people who fully memorize the Quran; derived from the verb 'hafaza' which literally means to protect).

This is pretty new to me; and pretty amazing on top of that. The most that I could do with the Quran is memorizing certain suras and ayat, sometimes with their meanings (and I can't translate correctly without any aid of a translated Quran)

Nonetheless, it seems that they're not quite surprised with my answers; they are rather pleased that someone actually asked about it. Or maybe they're used to my personality. Not sure which

z8000783 wrote:Wise beyond his years this padwan is.

Que-gon John

And yet I'm still far from experienced and far to be considered knowledgeable. I'm more of 'Epic of Hang Tuah' or 'The Silent Prau' type and a little bit of Mario Puzo's.



Ugh really, I wished I could spend more time to answer on the other thread.

Apparently there's none; so to speak. Nobody even managed to pass the structure part; for every sura the structure is randomize and many researches to study whether there's exist a definite structure are unable to pin out if there is. Even if it is possible to generate a new Sura by using machines and templates from the original, can the new sura would actually contain good meanings and values (since values are subjective)? And we're not talking about only science facts.

I can't really see it's plausible to be done; but if you or someone you know did pin out an actual formulaic structure, maybe it's possible then?

zurina wrote:Apparently there's none; so to speak. Nobody even managed to pass the structure part; for every sura the structure is randomize and many researches to study whether there's exist a definite structure are unable to pin out if there is.

Surely, then, if there's no regular or typical structure to a sura, anything that doesn't copy an existing one will pass the structure test. Anyway, anything that did copy an existing structure would no doubt be struck out as unoriginal. Heads you lose, tails Allah wins, by the sound of it.

Actually, the whole idea of it being written as poetry stinks a bit. Unless it's the most primitive doggerel, it's bound to be obscurantist to a greater or lesser degree. And in view of the vast amount of effort which has gone into trying to fathom its meaning, down the centuries, greater rather than lesser.