Islam and Jerusalem

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the mosques...

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Islam and Jerusalem

#1  Postby HomerJay » Mar 29, 2012 10:14 am

mmkay, caveats, this is hasbara, from a Settler site, yadda yadda, yadda...

Mohammed, who founded Islam in 622 CE, was born and raised in present-day Saudi Arabia, he never set foot in Jerusalem.

His connection to the city came years after his death when the Dome of the Rock shrine and the al-Aqsa mosque were built in 688 and 691, respectively, their construction spurred by political and religious rivalries.

In 638 CE, the Caliph (or successor to Mohammed) Omar and his invading armies captured Jerusalem from the Byzantine Empire. One reason they wanted to erect a holy structure in Jerusalem was to proclaim Islam's supremacy over Christianity and its most important shrine, the Church of the Holy Sepulcher.

More important was the power struggle within Islam itself. The Damascus-based Umayyad Caliphs who controlled Jerusalem wanted to establish an alternative holy site if their rivals blocked access to Mecca. That was important because the Hajj or pilgrimage to Mecca was (and remains today) one of the Five Pillars of Islam. As a result, they built what became known as the Dome of the Rock shrine and the adjacent mosque.

To enhance the prestige of the "substitute Mecca," the Jerusalem mosque was named "al-Aqsa." It means "the furthest mosque" in Arabic, but has far broader implications, since it is the same phrase used in a key passage of the Quran called "The Night Journey." In that passage, Mohammed arrives at "al-Aqsa" on a winged steed accompanied by the Archangel Gabriel, from there they ascend into heaven for a divine meeting with Allah, after which Mohammed returns to Mecca.


It goes on with some interesting history about Jerusalem itself, especially the manner in which it was left to decay, until Israel rejuvenated Islamic claims.

One thing I think it misses out on is it describes the Night Journey as a visit to the prophets of Islam, but one key element (for me anyway) is that it included Judaic and Christian prophets. This seems important as Mo is able to fly (on a winged horse) back to earth and say he has spoken to Moses, Abraham and Jesus and they all agreed Mo was the latest, greatest and final prophet.
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Re: Islam and Jerusalem

#2  Postby Oeditor » Mar 30, 2012 4:04 pm

HomerJay wrote:One thing I think it misses out on is it describes the Night Journey as a visit to the prophets of Islam, but one key element (for me anyway) is that it included Judaic and Christian prophets. This seems important as Mo is able to fly (on a winged horse) back to earth and say he has spoken to Moses, Abraham and Jesus and they all agreed Mo was the latest, greatest and final prophet.
Islam has a propensity for claiming pre-Islamic prophets for its own. I've certainly seen it claimed that Abraham was a Muslim. It's a bit like the Mormons baptising dead people.
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Re: Islam and Jerusalem

#3  Postby Onyx8 » Mar 30, 2012 5:21 pm

Paarsurrey claims Socrates.
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Re: Islam and Jerusalem

#4  Postby Shrunk » Mar 30, 2012 5:30 pm

Onyx8 wrote:Paarsurrey claims Socrates.


And Buddha. A few others, I think.

Of course, Christianity claims all the Jewish prophets, so this is just a continuing pattern.
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Re: Islam and Jerusalem

#5  Postby HomerJay » Mar 30, 2012 5:47 pm

Shrunk wrote:
Onyx8 wrote:Paarsurrey claims Socrates.


And Buddha. A few others, I think.

Of course, Christianity claims all the Jewish prophets, so this is just a continuing pattern.

No, it is a new pattern. Jesus is never reported to have met earlier Jewish prophets, nor to have delivered a message from them to bring to the jews.
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Re: Islam and Jerusalem

#6  Postby Clive Durdle » Mar 30, 2012 5:51 pm

Tom Holland.....
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Re: Islam and Jerusalem

#7  Postby Aern Rakesh » Mar 30, 2012 6:10 pm

HomerJay wrote:
Shrunk wrote:
Onyx8 wrote:Paarsurrey claims Socrates.


And Buddha. A few others, I think.

Of course, Christianity claims all the Jewish prophets, so this is just a continuing pattern.

No, it is a new pattern. Jesus is never reported to have met earlier Jewish prophets, nor to have delivered a message from them to bring to the jews.


The New Testament is full of references to passages from the Israeli prophetic scrolls and how they presage the coming of Christ, so it is exactly similar. It is about the establishing of the line of succession...
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Re: Islam and Jerusalem

#8  Postby HomerJay » Mar 30, 2012 6:48 pm

Nora_Leonard wrote:
HomerJay wrote:
Shrunk wrote:
Onyx8 wrote:Paarsurrey claims Socrates.


And Buddha. A few others, I think.

Of course, Christianity claims all the Jewish prophets, so this is just a continuing pattern.

No, it is a new pattern. Jesus is never reported to have met earlier Jewish prophets, nor to have delivered a message from them to bring to the jews.


The New Testament is full of references to passages from the Israeli prophetic scrolls and how they presage the coming of Christ, so it is exactly similar. It is about the establishing of the line of succession...

No, fulfilling prophecy is one thing, Mo claimed to have met Moses et al and brought back a message saying They told Me to tell You that You're to follow Me.

This is the whole purpose of the Night Journey, otherwise it could just involve Gabriel saying you'rer the next prophet etc.
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Re: Islam and Jerusalem

#9  Postby Shrunk » Mar 30, 2012 7:07 pm

HomerJay wrote:No, fulfilling prophecy is one thing, Mo claimed to have met Moses et al and brought back a message saying They told Me to tell You that You're to follow Me.

This is the whole purpose of the Night Journey, otherwise it could just involve Gabriel saying you'rer the next prophet etc.


It seems like splitting hairs. Either way, the message is just being passed on from God, so who cares which intermediary delivers it?
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Re: Islam and Jerusalem

#10  Postby Zwaarddijk » Mar 30, 2012 7:08 pm

HomerJay wrote:
Nora_Leonard wrote:
HomerJay wrote:
Shrunk wrote:

And Buddha. A few others, I think.

Of course, Christianity claims all the Jewish prophets, so this is just a continuing pattern.

No, it is a new pattern. Jesus is never reported to have met earlier Jewish prophets, nor to have delivered a message from them to bring to the jews.


The New Testament is full of references to passages from the Israeli prophetic scrolls and how they presage the coming of Christ, so it is exactly similar. It is about the establishing of the line of succession...

No, fulfilling prophecy is one thing, Mo claimed to have met Moses et al and brought back a message saying They told Me to tell You that You're to follow Me.

This is the whole purpose of the Night Journey, otherwise it could just involve Gabriel saying you'rer the next prophet etc.

Homer, you should really read your sources.

Like fucking seriously:

The Bible wrote:
Matthew 17:
And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.


Waitwhat, here we have it again


The Bible wrote:
Mark 9:
And after six days Jesus taketh [with him] Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.
And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.


Luke 9 has the same story!

And what's more, the actual founder of Christianity actually based his authority on being spoken to by Jesus.
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Re: Islam and Jerusalem

#11  Postby HomerJay » Mar 30, 2012 7:12 pm

Zwaarddijk wrote:
Like fucking seriously:

Oh dear, now where does it say the earlier prophets told him to go back and tell the jews that their prophets had to told him to tell them to follow Christ?

Like fucking seriously.
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Re: Islam and Jerusalem

#12  Postby Zwaarddijk » Mar 30, 2012 7:18 pm

HomerJay wrote:
Zwaarddijk wrote:
Like fucking seriously:

Oh dear, now where does it say the earlier prophets told him to go back and tell the jews that their prophets had to told him to tell them to follow Christ?

Like fucking seriously.


What do you think is the fucking point of having that narrative in the gospels? It's exactly to show that Jesus' authority is accepted by the prophets of Old, their turning up out of the blue like that and chatting with Jesus has the exact same function as the narrative of Mohammed ascending to the heavens. Or do you think the evangelist just liked telling those who would hear his story out that Moses and Eliah liked hanging around? Or that the point is "Jesus gets approval from both Moses and Eliah, so it's at least ok to listen to him"? Read in light of the fact that most Jews of the time probably literally thought Moses had given this commandment as well: "The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;"

Anyway, your comment does kind of suggest you're not cut out to understand the language games these kinds of books often contain. Go and learn.
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Re: Islam and Jerusalem

#13  Postby HomerJay » Mar 30, 2012 7:48 pm

The point of the story is to show that Christ has superceded the old law and brought the new law and tyo metamorphise jesus into god.

Moses and Elijah are bit players, maybe witnesses, they don't bring a message from themselves, as in Mo's narrative.
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Re: Islam and Jerusalem

#14  Postby paarsurrey » Mar 30, 2012 8:15 pm

"ISRA" or"The Night Journey" and "al-Aqsa"mosque mentioned in Quran

HomerJay wrote:"the Jerusalem mosque was named "al-Aqsa." It means "the furthest mosque" in Arabic, but has far broader implications, since it is the same phrase used in a key passage of the Quran called "The Night Journey." In that passage, Mohammed arrives at "al-Aqsa" on a winged steed accompanied by the Archangel Gabriel, from there they ascend into heaven for a divine meeting with Allah, after which Mohammed returns to Mecca


Homer Jay has reproduced a political article; notwithstanding the political conflict between the two obvious parties in the area, and that they have to decide among themselves; I will restrict myself to Muhammad's vision mentioned in the article and named "The Night Journey" which is "ISRA" mentioned in Quran, I will just reflect on it.

It is true that Al-Aqsa was built in the time of Omer- the Second Caliph, when Muhammad had already died. Since it was far-off from Medina or Mecca, I think just for that it was named like that.
Muslims have built mosques around the world and have sometimes named them "al-Aqsa", I have seen some of them; and one of them may be viewed from the following link:

Minaratul Masih and Masjid Aqsa
http://www.themuslimtimes.org/2012/02/c ... asjid-aqsa

I wanted to give a photo of it here; but don't know how to insert a photo in the post here.
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Re: Islam and Jerusalem

#15  Postby Zwaarddijk » Mar 30, 2012 8:15 pm

HomerJay wrote:The point of the story is to show that Christ has superceded the old law and brought the new law and tyo metamorphise jesus into god.

Moses and Elijah are bit players, maybe witnesses, they don't bring a message from themselves, as in Mo's narrative.


... and the functional difference of the cameo appearances are what? What's the functional difference between being given a stamp of approval and "yeah, he supercedes the old law!" or being told by the prophets that "hey, go tell them, dude!"

There is none, it's the exact same kind of deception. Muhammed was not doing anything innovative at all, he was doing exactly what the evangelists did with that story.

In fact, your wording makes it seem you're kind of implying the NT's take on things is an even worse deception than the Muhammed Night Journey is.
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Re: Islam and Jerusalem

#16  Postby HomerJay » Mar 30, 2012 8:24 pm

Zwaarddijk wrote:
There is none, it's the exact same kind of deception. Muhammed was not doing anything innovative at all, he was doing exactly what the evangelists did with that story.

Nope, in the christian version there is no direct instruction from the earlier prophets, which there is in the islamic version, that's the point, the whole difference.

Mo could say that the jews were going against an instruction from their own prophet, the christians can't.

I'm not saying christianity hasn't appropriated judaism, just that they've done it differently.
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Re: Islam and Jerusalem

#17  Postby Zwaarddijk » Mar 30, 2012 8:44 pm

HomerJay wrote:
Zwaarddijk wrote:
There is none, it's the exact same kind of deception. Muhammed was not doing anything innovative at all, he was doing exactly what the evangelists did with that story.

Nope, in the christian version there is no direct instruction from the earlier prophets, which there is in the islamic version, that's the point, the whole difference.

Mo could say that the jews were going against an instruction from their own prophet, the christians can't.

Yet that's exactly one reason hundreds of thousands of Jews have been killed by Christians.

I'm not saying christianity hasn't appropriated judaism, just that they've done it differently.

No, they've done exactly that. If you read enough Christian material, you'll find such a claim regarding Judaism repeatedly - that they have rejected Jesus in violation of their own prophets.

And as far as "going against an instruction", how about:
"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:"

Jesus is also making the point that believing what he says is an instruction from the prophets of the old:
"And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." (in an allegory, to be sure, but the point he is making if someone did believe in Moses and the prophets, he'd accept Jesus' teachings as valid). Even more explicitly there is:
"And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me."

In John, some pretty explicit things doing exactly what you say Christianity did not come up with:
"Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is [one] that accuseth you, [even] Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?"
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Re: Islam and Jerusalem

#18  Postby Oeditor » Mar 31, 2012 9:33 am

paarsurrey wrote:"ISRA" or"The Night Journey" and "al-Aqsa"mosque mentioned in Quran

It is true that Al-Aqsa was built in the time of Omer- the Second Caliph, when Muhammad had already died. Since it was far-off from Medina or Mecca, I think just for that it was named like that.
Muslims have built mosques around the world and have sometimes named them "al-Aqsa", I have seen some of them;
Thanks for that confirmation paarsurrey. Homer: thanks, I didn't know that. It makes a lot of sense. Still, the facts of a made-up story are difficult to sort out!
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Re: Islam and Jerusalem

#19  Postby Aern Rakesh » Mar 31, 2012 11:15 am

I still don't understand what the big issue is. The history of human ideas shows that each generation builds on and reinterprets the existing traditions. Although there is no proof that Muhammad was ever in Jerusalem, he was in charge of Khadija's camel caravan (she being the wealthy widow who eventually became his first wife) and would have travelled extensively. He certainly spent time in both Jewish and Christian communities and was influenced by them.

The first Guru in the Sikh tradition, Nanak Dev, grew up in a mixed Muslim/Hindu village. He was born into a Hindu family, but he 'tried out' Islam as well, eventually announcing "I am neither Hindu nor Muslim" when it seemed that neither really fit his own experiences.

As for Muhammad's night journey, well I don't see why he couldn't have actually had a dream where he met those figures who he'd probably been hearing about for years. I once dreamt I met the Buddha!

For thousands of years before it was incorporated into the Christian tradition about Jesus, there was a tradition of gods and goddesses dying, descending into the underworld and being reborn. One of the OT prophets, I forget which one, complains about the women weeping for Tammuz at the gates of Jerusalem, Tammuz being one of those gods who died and then was reborn.

As the OP himself points out, this article is from the newspaper of a Jewish settlement site, who will have their own reasons for wanting to undermine Muslim claims to Muslim sites in Jerusalem.
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Re: Islam and Jerusalem

#20  Postby Arjan Dirkse » Apr 01, 2012 9:15 pm

In Buddhism it's the same, Buddhism claimed lots of Hindu Gods as their own.

It's a normal pattern in religion but also in other areas I think, building on what has come before.
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