Koran existed before Muhammad

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the mosques...

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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#21  Postby Oeditor » Sep 10, 2015 6:56 pm

kennyc wrote:Interesting maybe the ornamentation was added later. That certainly would be a consideration in testing/dating the ink!
One can even wonder whether the few diacritical marks - which are said to be against an early date - could have been added later. Done in the same colour, it wouldn't be obvious. Could microscopy distinguish a change of pens? Would a quill last for a whole page?
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#22  Postby duvduv » Sep 17, 2015 10:14 pm

I am learning that professional scholars have a career and reputation to maintain, and are willing to be hasty in their evaluations and interpretations. It's not only in this field, but in others as well. The fact is there were other Quran's circulating from other alleged prophets, and the texts may have been shared, written on older parchments, etc. It all depends on the sincerity of the scholars today......
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#23  Postby kennyc » Sep 17, 2015 10:27 pm

No it doesn't. It depends on the science.
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#24  Postby Oeditor » Sep 19, 2015 12:01 pm

How findings are presented, outside the academic press, tends to depend on the university's press office. Often mangled further by the daily press.
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#25  Postby Peter Brown » Sep 20, 2015 1:00 pm

kennyc wrote:No it doesn't. It depends on the science.


well, no. Science can't talk about something that isn't there can it, so you do get a few best guesses vs the official Islamic line on such matters.

For instance the official Muslim line is Mecca is located in Saudi Arabia.

The Orientalist scientific party line believe the Muslims on this. (pre 1980)

The new post Orientalist scientific party line is Mecca could never be located in Saudi Arabia because Olives don't grow there, at all, so this can't be the town Muhammad is quoted as saying it had olive plantations. Then you get the best guesses as to where the real Mecca might have been, all speculation, no evidence, just the observation that no olives grow that far south and other little oddities in the Quran that point to a Mecca located more to the north..

The debate is still hot between the Orientalist tradition and the post Orientalist communities and will be until a sign with this is Mecca pop xxxx Muhammed s tent third on the right is found in the desert.
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#26  Postby kennyc » Sep 20, 2015 1:02 pm

Actually Peter, it can. Guesses and opinions are not science.
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#27  Postby igorfrankensteen » Sep 20, 2015 6:33 pm

I can't see the original posted link. I gues because I'm not loyal to the Crown. But I found another take on the story here:

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33436021

which suggests that none of this fussing is applicable. According to the above link, the age of the parchment is still within the expected time that the Koran was said to have been written, and isn't old enough to be sure that it IS older than a lot of other very old copies in existing collections.
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#28  Postby kennyc » Sep 20, 2015 7:21 pm

igorfrankensteen wrote:I can't see the original posted link. I gues because I'm not loyal to the Crown. But I found another take on the story here:

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33436021

which suggests that none of this fussing is applicable. According to the above link, the age of the parchment is still within the expected time that the Koran was said to have been written, and isn't old enough to be sure that it IS older than a lot of other very old copies in existing collections.


Probably cause you've not pledged your allegiance to Mohammad.
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#29  Postby Oeditor » Sep 21, 2015 2:18 pm

igorfrankensteen wrote: which suggests that none of this fussing is applicable. According to the above link, the age of the parchment is still within the expected time that the Koran was said to have been written, and isn't old enough to be sure that it IS older than a lot of other very old copies in existing collections.
The problem for the Muslim tradition is that the date range extends from before Mohammed began preaching the content of the Koran and stops before the time whan it was supposedly immutably codified and all preceding copies destroyed. If the younger date is correct, it's a blow to the tradition. If the older date is correct, it's a blow to Islam.
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#30  Postby igorfrankensteen » Sep 28, 2015 2:42 am

Oeditor wrote:
igorfrankensteen wrote: which suggests that none of this fussing is applicable. According to the above link, the age of the parchment is still within the expected time that the Koran was said to have been written, and isn't old enough to be sure that it IS older than a lot of other very old copies in existing collections.
The problem for the Muslim tradition is that the date range extends from before Mohammed began preaching the content of the Koran and stops before the time whan it was supposedly immutably codified and all preceding copies destroyed. If the younger date is correct, it's a blow to the tradition. If the older date is correct, it's a blow to Islam.


The only real "threat" would be to the possibility that NOT all previous copies were destroyed. And if this text fails to differ from the "immutably codified" version, then there's nothing special about this at all, save the fun of it being really old. And even with that, if the middle date is correct, there's still no problem.

One thing IS certain, and that is that the headline is more for effect than anything else. Almost entirely misleading.
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#31  Postby Oeditor » Sep 30, 2015 12:45 pm

I'd have thought the idea that an earlier copy might have escaped destruction is the least worrying prospect for the Muslim tradition. If however it could be proven that a substantial component of the Koran existed in writing before Mohammed was supposed to have gone into that cave, the effect would be devastating.
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#32  Postby Rumraket » Sep 30, 2015 12:48 pm

Shrunk wrote:That'd mean it was written by Allah, right? Maybe His crib notes when he was giving Muhammad dictation.

Unless another prophet prophesized Muhammad's coming!
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#33  Postby Oeditor » Sep 30, 2015 1:00 pm

Rumraket wrote:
Shrunk wrote:That'd mean it was written by Allah, right? Maybe His crib notes when he was giving Muhammad dictation.

Unless another prophet prophesized Muhammad's coming!
Maybe a polytheist prophet? That would be fun. :evilgrin:
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#34  Postby duvduv » Sep 30, 2015 3:36 pm

kennyc wrote:No it doesn't. It depends on the science.

What does science tell you about whether Muhammad of the Quran actually existed??
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#35  Postby Oeditor » Oct 01, 2015 5:33 pm

duvduv wrote:
kennyc wrote:No it doesn't. It depends on the science.

What does science tell you about whether Muhammad of the Quran actually existed??
Well, it provides precious little evidence, if any, that he did. Certainly as and when represented. Even "Mohammed" might be a honorific and not a name (at the time!).
However, if your question really means "why argue about dates if Mohammed didn't exist?", I'd say it's a useful step in debunking the myth.
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#37  Postby Oeditor » Oct 03, 2015 2:09 pm

I'm cuirous: why would The Rationaliser expect a slightly earlier dating to invalidate Luxenberg's Syriac argument? Does anyone know?
I'd also be interested to know where that graph came from: I;ve seen it beore as an ornamentation on the Birmingham site but not in useable detail. As it is, I'd disagree slightly with Tom holland about the centre date being 610 - the curve is skewed and 605 looks a better estimate or even a year or two earlier. Not a lot, but a few years could move verses brom Mecca to Medina or vice versa.
Anyway, the conversation shows that apologists will apologise!
IslamQA wrote:sigma 1 range, puts it well into thetime of traditional Islamic history. Sigma 2 curve, agrees.
Those ranges are given in the diagram as 585-631 and 563-644 respectively. In 585 Well, in 585 Mohammed was only 15 and in 563 he hadn't even been born! At the peak date of say 605 he hadn't gone into the cave yet - that was on Tom Hollan's reading of the peak, 610. So perhaps Shrunk was right in suggesting it's actually Allah's crib sheet!
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#38  Postby NineBerry » Oct 03, 2015 4:36 pm

I see a lot of historians who don't seem to understand that the result of Carbon Dating results in probabilities not fixed dates. You cannot use carbon dating to date a specific individual artefact within a specific decade with 100% accuracy.
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#39  Postby Oeditor » Oct 03, 2015 5:13 pm

NineBerry wrote:I see a lot of historians who don't seem to understand that the result of Carbon Dating results in probabilities not fixed dates. You cannot use carbon dating to date a specific individual artefact within a specific decade with 100% accuracy.
That's nothing compared with the number of people who don't realise you can't measure anything with absolute accuracy.
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