Koran existed before Muhammad

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Koran existed before Muhammad

#1  Postby kennyc » Sep 01, 2015 1:28 pm

An ancient copy of the Koran found in a Birmingham library could rewrite the early history of Islam, experts believe.

Some of the world’s oldest fragments of the Muslim holy text were discovered by the University of Birmingham in July.

The pages of the Koran were kept with a collection of Middle Eastern books and lay undiscovered for almost a century.

Experts think the manuscript, written on sheep or goat skin, dates back to between AD 568 and 645.

The Prophet Muhammad, said to have received the revelations that form the Koran, lived between AD 570 and 632.

But now some historians controversially believe the Birmingham Koran could pre-date the Prophet.

That would contradict most accounts of his life and legacy and may “radically alter the edifice of Islamic tradition”.

....


http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/mi ... te-9966936
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#2  Postby Peter Brown » Sep 01, 2015 1:53 pm

The only way to be sure would be to test the ink, and Bart Erhman says a lot of ink would need to be distroyed to get a firm result.
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#3  Postby Shrunk » Sep 01, 2015 2:57 pm

That'd mean it was written by Allah, right? Maybe His crib notes when he was giving Muhammad dictation.
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#4  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Sep 01, 2015 3:06 pm

It would not be that impossible or strange. Mohammed, if he existed, or his followers, could've easily co-opted the 'original'.
We'd have to await positive testing though.
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#5  Postby Shrunk » Sep 01, 2015 4:11 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:It would not be that impossible or strange. Mohammed, if he existed, or his followers, could've easily co-opted the 'original'.
We'd have to await positive testing though.


Well, it would be strange if, as Muslims claim, the Quran was revealed directly to Mohammed from God. Unfortunately, it seems few Muslim "scholars" of Islam feel at liberty to entertain any alternative scenarios.
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#6  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Sep 01, 2015 4:13 pm

Shrunk wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:It would not be that impossible or strange. Mohammed, if he existed, or his followers, could've easily co-opted the 'original'.
We'd have to await positive testing though.


Well, it would be strange if, as Muslims claim, the Quran was revealed directly to Mohammed from God.

Of course.

Shrunk wrote: Unfortunately, it seems few Muslim "scholars" of Islam feel at liberty to entertain any alternative scenarios.

The same would be true with Jews vis a vis the Ten Commandments or the Christians vis a vis Jesus's resurrection.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#7  Postby monkeyboy » Sep 01, 2015 4:35 pm

Not to rain on anyone's parade but........ Parchment keeps for quite some time. It used to get recycled by scraping the top surface away. It could well be that a piss stained goat herd could only afford to use old parchment to scribble mad old Mo's ramblings down on.
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#8  Postby kennyc » Sep 01, 2015 6:04 pm

monkeyboy wrote:Not to rain on anyone's parade but........ Parchment keeps for quite some time. It used to get recycled by scraping the top surface away. It could well be that a piss stained goat herd could only afford to use old parchment to scribble mad old Mo's ramblings down on.


Yep, that's why as Peter mentioned it would be more definitive to test the ink....
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#9  Postby Alan B » Sep 01, 2015 6:15 pm

This is old news.
Please refer to my thread here
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#10  Postby kennyc » Sep 01, 2015 6:19 pm

But it's September!
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#11  Postby Alan B » Sep 01, 2015 6:23 pm

If the ink can be tested and is found to be earlier than Mo, then that would suggest that Mo was a plagiarist.
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#12  Postby chairman bill » Sep 01, 2015 6:59 pm

When belief & facts collide, beliefs win. Muslims will just reject the 'Satanic' science that was involved
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#13  Postby lucek » Sep 01, 2015 7:19 pm

Peter Brown wrote:The only way to be sure would be to test the ink, and Bart Erhman says a lot of ink would need to be distroyed to get a firm result.

You could date the animal hide. It would atleast give you an upper limit. Yes it could be a palimpsest.
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#14  Postby chairman bill » Sep 01, 2015 8:02 pm

I want them to find something in Mo's own hand, that says "Whatever you do, treat Palmyra with some fucking respect!" Might be a bit too late though.
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#15  Postby kennyc » Sep 01, 2015 8:03 pm

chairman bill wrote:I want them to find something in Mo's own hand, that says "Whatever you do, treat Palmyra with some fucking respect!" Might be a bit too late though.


Too late, those scum really don't care, it's just an excuse...
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#16  Postby Oeditor » Sep 08, 2015 3:14 pm

Alan B wrote:If the ink can be tested and is found to be earlier than Mo, then that would suggest that Mo was a plagiarist.
Suggest? There;s no doubt about it - half the stuff in the Koran is pinched from Jewish or Christian stories. Not a little from the Ancient Greeks, either.
As or the mss, I'm surprised that they say it's on "sheep or goat skin": compared with what they'd need for C14 dating, a mere snippet should give them enough DNA to answer that question. It's also surprising that nothing has been said about whether it could be a palimpsest - surely a critical factor with such mss. Can we assume that the author knows her job and has excluded it?
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#17  Postby Ironclad » Sep 08, 2015 5:28 pm

Alan B wrote:This is old news.
Please refer to my thread here


That thread is older than the Koran! OMFGWTF1
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#18  Postby lucek » Sep 08, 2015 8:02 pm

Oeditor wrote:
Alan B wrote:If the ink can be tested and is found to be earlier than Mo, then that would suggest that Mo was a plagiarist.
Suggest? There;s no doubt about it - half the stuff in the Koran is pinched from Jewish or Christian stories. Not a little from the Ancient Greeks, either.
As or the mss, I'm surprised that they say it's on "sheep or goat skin": compared with what they'd need for C14 dating, a mere snippet should give them enough DNA to answer that question. It's also surprising that nothing has been said about whether it could be a palimpsest - surely a critical factor with such mss. Can we assume that the author knows her job and has excluded it?

I assume that's why they want to date the ink. But yeah C14 the skin before bothering to test the ink. The ink should be the confirmation of the age not the test.
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#19  Postby Oeditor » Sep 09, 2015 1:40 pm

They have this to say about the ink:
Do you have any information about the ink?
The brown ink from this period used on the manuscript would have been made from a carbon-based pigment, applied with a reed pen. The red ink, which may have been added later, could be made from kermes lake pigment, which was available at the time. The inks have not been age-tested as there is currently no scientifically reliable method of dating inks.
Interesting point about the red ink - the ornamentations have been suggested as ruling out an early date. This casts doubt on that argument.
http://www.birmingham.ac.uk/events/quran-manuscript/faqs.aspx
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#20  Postby kennyc » Sep 09, 2015 1:42 pm

Oeditor wrote:They have this to say about the ink:
Do you have any information about the ink?
The brown ink from this period used on the manuscript would have been made from a carbon-based pigment, applied with a reed pen. The red ink, which may have been added later, could be made from kermes lake pigment, which was available at the time. The inks have not been age-tested as there is currently no scientifically reliable method of dating inks.
Interesting point about the red ink - the ornamentations have been suggested as ruling out an early date. This casts doubt on that argument.
http://www.birmingham.ac.uk/events/quran-manuscript/faqs.aspx


Interesting maybe the ornamentation was added later. That certainly would be a consideration in testing/dating the ink!
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