Koran existed before Muhammad

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the mosques...

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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#61  Postby Animavore » Mar 10, 2016 1:19 pm

Oeditor wrote:It's particularly ridiculous when people will believe in Jesus' coffin, the Turin shroud and thousands of pieces of the "true cross" despite dating, even though their original texts make no mention of the provenance of such relics. You'd think it would be obvious that these claims had simply been made-up. Oh...


The shroud of Turin is a known fake and always was, even in its own time.



In 1988 three of the best radiocarbon dating labs in the world tested three pieces of the so-called "Shroud". Their results were that the fabric of the "Shroud" dates to AD 1262-1384 with 95% confidence. This proves the "Shroud" is a Medieval fake and this fits with all the other evidence we have about the "Shroud's" origins:

1. It first appears being exhibited by a French noble family, the de Charnys, in 1353.

2. Its authenticity was immediately challenged by the local bishop, Henri de Poitiers, who found the artist who had faked it. The bishop ordered the de Charnys to stop exhibiting the Shroud.

3. In 1389 the de Charny's try exhibiting the Shroud again. The new bishop of Troyes, Pierre D'Arcis, appeals to Pope Clement VII. Despite being a relative of the de Charnys, the Pope can't argue with the evidence that the Shroud is a fake and orders his relatives to exhibit the Shroud as a representation of the "true" Shroud and not the real thing.

4. The Shroud later passed over to the Savoy family in Italy and the fact that it was a fake was forgotten - the correspondence between Pope Clement and Bishop Pierre D'Arcis was not rediscovered until the Nineteenth Century, by which time the Shroud was being venerated as the real thing by millions.


cont. http://www.rationalskepticism.org/post1 ... tml#p90885

People really do just believe regardless.
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#62  Postby Scot Dutchy » Mar 10, 2016 1:22 pm

When your world is so fragile and about to fall apart what else can you do?
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#63  Postby aliihsanasl » Mar 10, 2016 1:30 pm

I was reading a book a few months ago there was a sentence like " if you bring all the pieces of true cross circulating in the Christian world, you can create a small size grove."

Nobody can cheat a real expert no matter what type of forgery they use, ink, paper etc. writing style. Experts understand it if its perfect it takes time but sooner or later
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#64  Postby Alan B » Mar 10, 2016 2:37 pm

aliihsanasl wrote:I was reading a book a few months ago there was a sentence like " if you bring all the pieces of true cross circulating in the Christian world, you can create a small size grove."


Yep! That about sums up the relic business.
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#65  Postby Alan B » Mar 10, 2016 2:42 pm

igorfrankensteen wrote: So even if the paper this bit of Koran was written on was found to be hundreds of years older than the writer, it STILL wouldn't mean anything.

An obvious point the apologist media seems to have neglected or has just gone straight over their heads.
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#66  Postby Scot Dutchy » Mar 10, 2016 4:20 pm

Alan B wrote:
igorfrankensteen wrote: So even if the paper this bit of Koran was written on was found to be hundreds of years older than the writer, it STILL wouldn't mean anything.

An obvious point the apologist media seems to have neglected or has just gone straight over their heads.


An obvious point to start with if you want to make a forgery.
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#67  Postby igorfrankensteen » Mar 10, 2016 7:00 pm

Yes, for forgeries, but again. also if you simply want to record things which are important to you, and the media you have, is very old already.
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#68  Postby Oeditor » Mar 11, 2016 11:47 am

From what I recall of discussions at the time, there were arguments about the lack of availability of stocks of old parchment and, interestingly, as suggestion that the very presence of a sufficient stock of parchment would cast a contrary light on the supposed lack of a scribal tradition in those parts and times.
BTW I've yet to come across an analysis of the actual text compared with modern ones. It will still be more than a year before the embargo on Dr Fedeli's Ph.D. thesis is be lifted.
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#69  Postby duvduv » Mar 13, 2016 6:03 pm

What's the big deal of parts of what appear in the Quran having been texts circulating around earlier? Since no "biography" of "Muhammad" exists before the 8th century, what's so hard to believe that the cut and paste job of the Quran was accomplished under the regime of Mansour, especially in the environment of many Jews? The Quran incorporates many stories derived from Midrash, especially Pirkei de Rabbi Eliezer and Midrash Rabba. Check the book by Abraham Katsh on the subject.
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Re: Koran existed before Muhammad

#70  Postby aliihsanasl » Mar 15, 2016 12:31 am

I wish people could convince İlber Ortaylı for the carbon testing of Muhammad's materials. We have hair, tooth, dress lots of material but he said " I don't want it to share the same fate as Torino shroud"

Also there are people who claim that they're from his descend, actually many not reliable because I heard from 3 different nationalities that they're relative with him.

There are too many claims and people don't want to question their belief but I can't say his story is much more handy than any other prophets life.

At least we have a grave, his house and the things that belong him.

What I don't understand some atheists mention the names of the 2 Greek philosophers who have teaching to him in Hira mountain, tell the names of the social groups which he became member then another group say just because written literature belong to 8th century Quran had no connection with Muhammad. There are verses about how to live and lead Islamic groups and fight the wars that happened in 7th century. How we'll explain these ?

I watched the documentary named "Islam the untold story" but to tell the truth it looked a little biassed.

I can't explain why such an important figure never had autobiography in the 7th century or only 17 people took place in his funeral although there was more than a hundred thousands during his farewell but what does that proves us ?
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