My Islam Story

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the mosques...

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Re: My Islam Story

#101  Postby aban57 » Mar 24, 2018 6:28 pm

Ahd we still don't know what those videos are doing here.
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Re: My Islam Story

#102  Postby laklak » Mar 24, 2018 7:05 pm

Dudeism isn't on their list.

Dickheads.
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Re: My Islam Story

#103  Postby quas » Mar 25, 2018 7:05 pm

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-indo ... SKBN1GZ00K

While the news story is mostly accurate, the foreign media has been disgracefully incompetent that they seem to have relied solely on recycling local news than doing their own original reporting, and thus has erroneously reported a few critical facts. Local news media has not been entirely honest in their reporting because they are in the business of maintaining the status quo, so it's necessary for them to work together with the government, to propagate news stories and narratives approved by the government,
Last edited by quas on Mar 25, 2018 7:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: My Islam Story

#104  Postby Fallible » Mar 25, 2018 7:12 pm

We just glossing over that before then are we?
Sorry that you think you had it rough in the first world.
You ought to get out of that sooner than later.
Knowledge has turned into a trap; you have to slow down.
Get out of your head and spend less time alone.
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Re: My Islam Story

#105  Postby quas » Mar 25, 2018 7:18 pm

Fallible wrote:We just glossing over that before then are we?


no time to explain now, but i just realised what's wrong with international media coverage.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem
those who think alike than those who think differently. -Nietzsche
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Re: My Islam Story

#106  Postby Fallible » Mar 25, 2018 7:18 pm

lol
Sorry that you think you had it rough in the first world.
You ought to get out of that sooner than later.
Knowledge has turned into a trap; you have to slow down.
Get out of your head and spend less time alone.
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Re: My Islam Story

#107  Postby quas » Mar 31, 2018 5:33 am

The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem
those who think alike than those who think differently. -Nietzsche
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Re: My Islam Story

#108  Postby The_Metatron » Mar 31, 2018 4:39 pm

My direct experience with Islam has been in Saudi Arabia and Bahrain.

I found it to be mostly safe there. People are people around the world, and they want what everyone wants, nothing surprising. The gulf between classes is the widest that I’ve seen anywhere there. The haves, have it. The have nots, have fucking nothing. Women aren’t even human there.

I’ve seen enough. Islam, like any religion, can kiss my ass.


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Re: My Islam Story

#109  Postby laklak » Mar 31, 2018 4:53 pm

That's my experience also, with a bit of time in Egypt, Abu Dhabi and Dubai thrown in. I saw little in their religion or their culture to recommend either.
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. - Mark Twain
The sky is falling! The sky is falling! - Chicken Little
I never go without my dinner. No one ever does, except vegetarians and people like that - Oscar Wilde
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Re: My Islam Story

#110  Postby quas » Apr 06, 2018 4:12 pm

Despite the previous electoral loss in Jakarta (where a Christian candidate got jailed for blasphemy), the local government and the foreign press have thus far maintained that radicalism has not taken over the political arena and completely undermined democracy and that most of the Muslims here are actually tolerant. It doesn't make sense until you start thinking that perhaps the government here and governments around the world actually benefited from having Islam around. Adam Curtis and Noam Chomsky have been telling us about how the USA neolibs need to have Islamic terrorism around as their boogeymen to help them maintain America's global political dominance. What most people don't already realise is that it is to the interest of every other country worldwide to help USA maintain her global political dominance, so everyone pretends like the emperor's got new clothes, and Islam is tolerant (and thus no need to have it eradicated to save humanity). It's a dangerous game they are playing, but no one minds the risks.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem
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Re: My Islam Story

#111  Postby quas » May 02, 2018 3:27 pm

The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem
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Re: My Islam Story

#112  Postby quas » May 28, 2018 2:33 pm

The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem
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Re: My Islam Story

#113  Postby Arjan Dirkse » May 29, 2018 8:41 am

Facebook is a greater threat than Islam.
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Re: My Islam Story

#114  Postby quas » Jul 30, 2018 3:52 pm

Arjan Dirkse wrote:Facebook is a greater threat than Islam.


They're both the same.

We [at Facebook] connect people…Maybe it costs a life by exposing someone to bullies. Maybe someone dies in a terrorist attack coordinated on our tools. And still we connect people. The ugly truth is that we believe in connecting people so deeply that anything that allows us to connect more people more often is de facto good. [emphasis added]


Facebook has an algorithm that, based on your browsing interest, suggests to you what would like and new people you would want to befriend. So what actually happened was that, someone who's into looking up Islamic stuff on the internet -particularly the fundamentalist extremist content- gets recommendations for more of those nasty hate-filled content and befriends like minded people and ended up being a suicide bomber.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 19336.html
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Re: My Islam Story

#115  Postby Cito di Pense » Jul 30, 2018 4:07 pm

quas wrote:
Arjan Dirkse wrote:Facebook is a greater threat than Islam.


They're both the same.

We [at Facebook] connect people…Maybe it costs a life by exposing someone to bullies. Maybe someone dies in a terrorist attack coordinated on our tools. And still we connect people. The ugly truth is that we believe in connecting people so deeply that anything that allows us to connect more people more often is de facto good. [emphasis added]


Facebook has an algorithm that, based on your browsing interest, suggests to you what would like and new people you would want to befriend. So what actually happened was that, someone who's into looking up Islamic stuff on the internet -particularly the fundamentalist extremist content- gets recommendations for more of those nasty hate-filled content and befriends like minded people and ended up being a suicide bomber.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 19336.html


Of course, quas. Of course. Facebook and Islam are the same, except for one thing. Facebook tries to connect people according to what they like, and Islam tries to connect people according to what god they believe in. In the latter case, some of those people connect on the basis of what they hate, as happens with other social media, but not reliably, which is what you keep trying to imply. Do you have another point to make, or do you just want to keep dumping your usual non-sequiturs into this thread based on a new article making the observation that terrorists use social media? You cite a click-bait article at The Independent, so you're into social media, yourself. If anything, this article is about the ways people are encouraging social media companies to do more to police the customers that are trying to use their operations to inflict damaqge.

Much of the news you read anywhere can be taken as fear-mongering, which is where you find the most active comments threads - in articles like this one. Why don't you just try lashing out at most people's need to sell stuff in order to feed themselves and their families or just to increase their bank balances?
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: My Islam Story

#116  Postby quas » Sep 05, 2018 7:57 pm

Why don't you just try lashing out at most people's need to sell stuff in order to feed themselves and their families or just to increase their bank balances?


I have been thinking about this. I guess I'm not sure how we can blame these business folks, since they are only tapping into the free market, supplying what people wanted. It's more profitable to sell religion, hatred and violence, because humans naturally have an appetite for religion, hatred and violence. Social media sites like Facebook or Instagram doesn't sell, they help other people "sell" (sell: persuade someone of the merits of as in sell an idea). That's even more profitable. By simply becoming the platform, the middlemen that facilitates transactions they can be involved in more business dealings than just direct selling. The question is, what is it about Islam that makes it more hateful and violent than any other religion such that it becomes most profitable for Facebook to facilitate hateful and violent people spreading hateful and violent ideas, which happens to be Muslims propagating Islam? There are certain innate elements unique only to Islam that differentiates it from other religions, and these innate qualities are inherently hateful and violent and/or allow, or even encourage, its followers to be more hateful and violent by enforcing tribalism and conformity more so than any other religion on this planet.
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Re: My Islam Story

#117  Postby Cito di Pense » Sep 05, 2018 8:59 pm

quas wrote:There are certain innate elements unique only to Islam that differentiates it from other religions, and these innate qualities are inherently hateful and violent and/or allow, or even encourage, its followers to be more hateful and violent by enforcing tribalism and conformity more so than any other religion on this planet.


Of course, you will never say what these innate elements are. The reason you won't do that is because religion is malleable. It's so malleable, you keep trying to hammer it into a dangerous-looking shape, and it keeps slipping out of your hands. That's why you will never say what these innate elements are. Maybe there are just a lot of people in such societies who don't have many options, and some of them become violent or radicalized, but that's a function of economics as much as it is anything else. Whatever is being used to appeal to and recruit extremists sometimes works on educated or successful people, but you need to show some statistics that demonstrate these innate elements work systematically across the board. You won't ever be able to demonstrate anything like that. After you spend ten years collecting data, the thing will have squirmed away from your gaze.

I don't think you want to examine anything outside of your thesis, and it does not appear you're doing this with an eye to defending that thesis. Like a lot of other political rhetoric, yours simply assumes its conclusion and sets about asserting it over and over again. Come up with some substance, quas. There's a part of me that would really like to discuss what you think these "innate elements" are, and how they play out across socio-economic strata.

Additionally, I'm studiously ignoring your screed about Instagram and Facebook and the rest. You have cited no data that supports your claims, and you should probably shut up about that, if all you're doing is reciting your personal obsession with the negative stuff you find on social media. You might fantasize yourself as collecting data, but if you never publish it, you might as well just crawl into a dark room and go back to surfing the social media sites.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: My Islam Story

#118  Postby quas » Sep 06, 2018 12:07 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:Of course, you will never say what these innate elements are. The reason you won't do that is because religion is malleable. It's so malleable, you keep trying to hammer it into a dangerous-looking shape, and it keeps slipping out of your hands. That's why you will never say what these innate elements are. Maybe there are just a lot of people in such societies who don't have many options, and some of them become violent or radicalized, but that's a function of economics as much as it is anything else. Whatever is being used to appeal to and recruit extremists sometimes works on educated or successful people, but you need to show some statistics that demonstrate these innate elements work systematically across the board. You won't ever be able to demonstrate anything like that. After you spend ten years collecting data, the thing will have squirmed away from your gaze.


I don't yet fully understand what these innate elements are. But if you force me to speculate right now, I'll say something very general like the main narrative itself. With muhammad as a warlord vs jesus or buddha the pussy pacifist, Isn't that obvious which religion is more likely to compel its followers to commit violence? Also, muslims has a label for non-muslims, they call them kafirs (infidels) whereas christians don't have such labels. Such name-calling behaviour certainly enforces tribalism (us vs them).

There's a part of me that would really like to discuss what you think these "innate elements" are, and how they play out across socio-economic strata.


Speaking of socio-economics, what's happening in Indonesia is definitely more complicated than just the involvement of religion . The problem of Muslim majority vs non-Muslim minority in Indonesia is a trifecta of layered discrimination. It's religion, race/ethnicity and economic status combined. The Muslim majority tend to be Malays (in South East Asian terms, they are simply referred to as Malays: Indonesia recognises sub-categories such as Malays, Javanese, Sundanese, Betawi, Bugis, etc) and poor. The non-Muslim minority tend to be Chinese and rich. They are Malay Christians, Hindus, pagans or even non-Muslim Muslims (Shia and Ahmaddiyah are considered non-Muslim by the Sunni/Sufi majority, and very much heavily persecuted) which are even more numerous than the Chinese. But you mention non-Muslim to these bigots, they tend to think of Chinese. That's because the Chinese are usually rich whereas the non-Muslim Malays are usually not.

Additionally, I'm studiously ignoring your screed about Instagram and Facebook and the rest. You have cited no data that supports your claims, and you should probably shut up about that, if all you're doing is reciting your personal obsession with the negative stuff you find on social media. You might fantasize yourself as collecting data, but if you never publish it, you might as well just crawl into a dark room and go back to surfing the social media sites.


What sort of data are you looking for? I can't bring up numbers like Cambridge Analytica, but it's well known fact -I have posted links to various news articles here already- about how Indonesian Muslims are using social media to spread hatred against the government vis-a-vis the non-Muslim majority.

Basically, you have politicians from the opposition trying to seize power from the incumbent president. And they do that by manipulating the Muslims majority against the government, utilizing social media and offline religious networks (mosques, Islamic boarding schools, Islamic student activist groups in colleges, etc) to spread negative propaganda towards the government, trying to frame the government as anti-Islam, pro-Chinese/anti-Malay, pro-rich/anti-poor, etc. It is hoped that if they could sow enough dissent, then the masses can be stirred to vote against the incumbent president or stage massive "People Power" protest demanding impeachment.

So how is the government responding to these? First, they made it well known fact to the public that there are assholes online spreading hoax, hateful speeches (it is well-known that these hateful speech were hateful because they were trying to incite Muslims hatred and anger towards non-Muslims and the Chinese) and assorted anti-government propaganda. Arrests were made. There is a group of people calling themselves the MCA (Muslim Cyber Army) and also there is another group of Saracen (guess where the name inspiration come from?). Most of these groups still remain at large (even if they are probably less active/more careful after these publicised arrests), and for some strange reason while the key leaders of these 2 groups have been arrested, it is never revealed to the public who masterminded or funded them. To my knowledge, the assholes who are propagating hateful speeches offline (Muslim IRL Army) haven't really been arrested at all. Mosques and Islamic boarding schools are still doing their thing.

Aside from this half-hearted public awareness campaign, the government has been busy trying to counter the "anti-Islam" image that has been branded on them by the opposition. The end result of this political ratrace, is the government and the opposition competing to convince the public (the Muslim majority) which one of them is better at fellating the Muslim majority. Which is why the upcoming election is LITERALLY an Aliens vs Predators scenario IRL: whoever wins, we lose.
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Re: My Islam Story

#119  Postby Cito di Pense » Sep 06, 2018 5:24 pm

quas wrote:I don't yet fully understand what these innate elements are.


You needn't have wasted so many keystrokes on the rest, which shows beyond doubt that you haven't a fucking clue yet what you're actually trying to say.

quas wrote:Which is why the upcoming election is LITERALLY an Aliens vs Predators scenario ...


Really, quas, don't just regurgitate the stuff you're reading in order to feed your confirmation bias. If you want to make a case about the uniqueness of Islam, you'd better get cracking.

I don't make any bones about how unpleasant it should be for an atheist to live in a society like the one you're describing, but that's a whole different kettle of fish from identifying some unique "innate elements" in Islam. You're describing a lot of stuff that is just idiosyncratic to a particular society. You need to pare away the urge to tell us everything, and do some analysis, in order to get to the fucking point, which isn't your foregone conclusion about Islam.

I don't really expect you to do that analysis; what I'm hoping instead is that you will just drop this obsession with proving to the world how horrible Islam is. Horrible it may be, or it may not be. You're not the one who's going to deliver us from Alien vs. Predator, especially if that is not actually what's going on. Best wishes for demonstrating that it is.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: My Islam Story

#120  Postby quas » Sep 06, 2018 6:22 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
quas wrote:I don't yet fully understand what these innate elements are.


You needn't have wasted so many keystrokes on the rest, which shows beyond doubt that you haven't a fucking clue yet what you're actually trying to say.


There are many things that I don't yet fully understand. I doubt you or most people do too. But I understand more than you do, because I can and have seen things. It's just that it's impossible for me to describe these to myself in simple words, much less convey them to you in a quantifiable, numerable data sort of way that demand from me. (And I see dead people. Not quite, but it's fucking close, okay.) For example, I can tell within seconds of meeting a person whether or not he/she is a psychopath, highly intelligent or just look intelligent but actually not very, trustworthy or not, etc. But I can't explain exactly what is it about that person that reveals so much to me instantly. Modern science has revealed that the gaydar exist, you can tell someone's gay by the tension in their underlying facial muscles. But most people who have functioning gaydar instinctly know this already, even before the scientific papers come out. From my observation is that people who are very much drawn to those hateful stuff (because of my lack of understand in psychology, I couldn't tell whether they are violent because of nature or nurture) are drawn to Islam like moths to a flame. My sixth sense is telling me that if say Christianity had been the majority religion here, then it wouldn't have been as effective for the local politicians to use it to spread hateful and violent propaganda. What I've described to you so far is that, Islam is not just being used to spread violent jihad, but it's become the perfect conduit for spreading ANY sort of hatred, even if it's hatred that doesn't have anything to do with the religion. No where in the quran or the hadiths can you find commandments to hate chinese Indonesians living in the 21st century. Books written centuries ago simply cannot have that sort of information. My goal in telling you all this is perhaps someone far more knowledgeable than me can add on this, explain it better to you, and ultimately advance your understanding and mine on this.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem
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