My Islam Story

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the mosques...

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Re: My Islam Story

#21  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jan 26, 2018 1:53 pm

zulumoose wrote:
when you say X cannot be Y, you must use a qualifier that is absolute to make that distinction.


Please point out what I said that you are equating to X cannot be Y?

zulumoose wrote:
first you have to guess what I mean by "Islam is not a religion"


I think you most likely mean that Islam is a community and a way of life. If believed strictly it is cult-like and influences every aspect of daily life to the point of immersion. Other religions are typically part-time or cultural aspects of peoples lives, not the defining feature of who they are.

IE Islam is not a religion because it is a community and a way of life.
Which implies that religions(X), cannot be communities and/or ways of life (Y).
Which they evidently can be.

Just responding to your devil's advocate argument, not meaning to attribute it you as your real position/claim.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: My Islam Story

#22  Postby zulumoose » Jan 26, 2018 2:11 pm

Very much a misunderstanding of what I said, quite a significant stretch actually, and that is apart from the fact that I stated I am merely speculating on someone else's justification for a point of view.

Apart from that, saying that something is not a Y because it is X which is so much more, does not mean that no Y can have any aspects of X.

Consider the following:-

Islam is not best defined as a religion because it controls your whole life. (Not my claim)
Christianity can control your whole life, therefore it cannot be a religion.

The first makes sense from a certain point of view, but even holding that point of view does not imply that the second is true.
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Re: My Islam Story

#23  Postby quas » Jan 26, 2018 4:32 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:Then you're employing an incredibly idiosyncratic definition of religion.

I understand the definition of religion. And, I also understand how some religious people -as Animavore mentioned- don't describe their particular brand of belief as religion. For example, the Christians who describe their religion as "a relationship with Jesus" because their religion is the only one that teaches a god that personally come down to earth to sacrifice himself (to himself) bla bla bla... That's a bit like a coke advertisment saying coke isn't coke because it's so unlike all the other cokes. And you know right away that's just clever marketing bullshit, because you know coke is coke.

Let's go back to the video. This woman wanted to learn everything she could possibly learn about Islam. She went to this Arabic/Islamic schools so she could learn Arabic so that she could read all those Islamic books in Arabic. She attempted to model her life as much as possible after Muhammad, to the extent that she was brushing her teeth with the brush that Muhammed was using. (If she could grow a herself a dick, and then hide that dick inside a six- or nine-year-old, I think she would probably do it.) And yet, eventually she left Islam because she had the whole approach wrong.

Have you ever read books/articles or watched those documentaries about the young men who joined ISIS? What is it about them that differentiates them from her? Here's a hint to help you guess: It's not the religious aspect. Whereas this woman spends every waking second of her life thinking/reading religious texts (she describes a library full of religious books as "heaven"), those men joining ISIS aren't that nerdy! I would guess some of them wouldn't be genuinely interested in studying, sitting down reading or even just talking casually with friends about the religious aspect 24/7 (they would probably think of that as hell).

So can you now guess why I said "Islam isn't a religion"?
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem
those who think alike than those who think differently. -Nietzsche
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Re: My Islam Story

#24  Postby Thommo » Jan 26, 2018 4:42 pm

Does it have anything to do with the frequency of winning Nobel prizes? :ask:
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Re: My Islam Story

#25  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jan 26, 2018 4:43 pm

zulumoose wrote:Very much a misunderstanding of what I said, quite a significant stretch actually, and that is apart from the fact that I stated I am merely speculating on someone else's justification for a point of view.

zulumoose it would help if you bothered to read my responses:
Just responding to your devil's advocate argument, not meaning to attribute it you as your real position/claim.


zulumoose wrote:Apart from that, saying that something is not a Y because it is X which is so much more, does not mean that no Y can have any aspects of X.

It does mean that Y cannot have X.
IE that religion cannot be someone's way of life.
Which is demonstrably incorrect.

zulumoose wrote:Consider the following:-

Islam is not best defined as a religion because it controls your whole life. (Not my claim)

Again, I already apologised and corrected myself on that.

zulumoose wrote:Christianity can control your whole life, therefore it cannot be a religion.

The first makes sense from a certain point of view, but even holding that point of view does not imply that the second is true.

The first is also a more nuanced claim than the one quas actually made.
Which was that Islam is not a religion.
Which in turn implies that any qualifiers that make it not-a-religion, can't be part of/the result of an actual religion.
Last edited by Thomas Eshuis on Jan 26, 2018 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: My Islam Story

#26  Postby quas » Jan 26, 2018 4:47 pm

Thommo wrote:Does it have anything to do with the frequency of winning Nobel prizes? :ask:


Why did you say that?
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem
those who think alike than those who think differently. -Nietzsche
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Re: My Islam Story

#27  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jan 26, 2018 4:48 pm

quas wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:Then you're employing an incredibly idiosyncratic definition of religion.

I understand the definition of religion.

The opposite is indicate by your line of reasoning so far.

quas wrote: And, I also understand how some religious people -as Animavore mentioned- don't describe their particular brand of belief as religion. For example, the Christians who describe their religion as "a relationship with Jesus" because their religion is the only one that teaches a god that personally come down to earth to sacrifice himself (to himself) bla bla bla... That's a bit like a coke advertisment saying coke isn't coke because it's so unlike all the other cokes. And you know right away that's just clever marketing bullshit, because you know coke is coke.

I fail to see how this paragraph in any way adresses what I posted or supports your line of reasoning so far.

quas wrote:Let's go back to the video. This woman wanted to learn everything she could possibly learn about Islam. She went to this Arabic/Islamic schools so she could learn Arabic so that she could read all those Islamic books in Arabic. She attempted to model her life as much as possible after Muhammad, to the extent that she was brushing her teeth with the brush that Muhammed was using. (If she could grow a herself a dick, and then hide that dick inside a six- or nine-year-old, I think she would probably do it.)

See, it's statments like that, that make me doubt your sincerity in looking for the truth.

quas wrote:And yet, eventually she left Islam because she had the whole approach wrong.

And here's the part where you demonstrate how that precludes Islam from being a religion.

quas wrote:
Have you ever read books/articles or watched those documentaries about the young men who joined ISIS?

Yes. How is that relevant?

quas wrote: What is it about them that differentiates them from her?

Again, relevance?

quas wrote: Here's a hint to help you guess: <snip>
So can you now guess why I said "Islam isn't a religion"?

No, because I have interest in your obtuse games.
You made a claim.
You clarify and defend it.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: My Islam Story

#28  Postby Thommo » Jan 26, 2018 4:51 pm

quas wrote:
Thommo wrote:Does it have anything to do with the frequency of winning Nobel prizes? :ask:


Why did you say that?


Because your comments here reminded me of a previous series of rather silly assertions and leaps of logic relating to religions, in which to my great amusement Nobel prizes took a central, if surreal, role.
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Re: My Islam Story

#29  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jan 26, 2018 5:01 pm

Thommo wrote:
quas wrote:
Thommo wrote:Does it have anything to do with the frequency of winning Nobel prizes? :ask:


Why did you say that?


Because your comments here reminded me of a previous series of rather silly assertions and leaps of logic relating to religions, in which to my great amusement Nobel prizes took a central, if surreal, role.

:this:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: My Islam Story

#30  Postby quas » Jan 26, 2018 5:10 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:See, it's statments like that, that make me doubt your sincerity in looking for the truth.

Muhammed was a pedobear. His wife Aisha was six or nine years old when he married/consummated the marriage. If one wanted to model one's own life after him, then logically that would entail one to —how do I put this delicately— fuck kids.

And here's the part where you demonstrate how that precludes Islam from being a religion.

I wanted you to guess. If I told you, then what's there for you to guess?

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
quas wrote:
Have you ever read books/articles or watched those documentaries about the young men who joined ISIS? What is it about them that differentiates them from her?

Again, relevance?


Have you or have you not read the books and watched the documentaries? After reading the books, watching the documentaries, you can't help but notice that certain character traits about these men stick out. These character traits are not present in this woman. Do you know what these traits are?
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem
those who think alike than those who think differently. -Nietzsche
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Re: My Islam Story

#31  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jan 26, 2018 5:16 pm

quas wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:See, it's statments like that, that make me doubt your sincerity in looking for the truth.

Muhammed was a pedofile.

And Lot had sex with his daughters. Doesn't mean all Jews aspire to incest.
And god commanded the Jews to keep all the woman children of the Mideanites as sex slaves.

quas wrote: His wife Aisha was six or nine years old when he married/consummated the marriage. If one wanted to model one's own life after him, then logically that would entail one to —how do I put this delicately— fuck kids.

Except that being a Muslim =/= becoming a carbon copy of Muhammed.

And here's the part where you demonstrate how that precludes Islam from being a religion.

I wanted you to guess.[/quote]
And I've made it clear to you that I've no interest in your silly games.

If I told you, then what's there for you to guess?

If you're not interested in a rational discussion, just say so.


Thomas Eshuis wrote:
quas wrote:
Have you ever read books/articles or watched those documentaries about the young men who joined ISIS? What is it about them that differentiates them from her?

Again, relevance?

Have you or have you not read the books and watched the documentaries?

You've quoted me out of context here. See my original post.


After reading the books, watching the documentaries, you can't help but notice that certain character traits about these men sticks out. These character traits are not present in this woman. Do you know what these traits are?

This appeal to personal anecdote means exactly diddly with a side of squat.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: My Islam Story

#32  Postby quas » Jan 26, 2018 5:49 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:And Lot had sex with his daughters. Doesn't mean all Jews aspire to incest.

That's different. In Islam, they recognised many prophets, but Muhammed was the ultimate. He was the only perfect prophet and thus also the most perfect human being ever lived, which is why Muslims are taught that every human being should emulate him. Lot wasn't the best prophet; in fact I think he was prophet #69 on the list of top 10 best prophets ever. Which is why you shouldn't fuck your daughters. Even if you happened to be as almighty as The Dear Leader of the Free World, and your daughter happened to be as hot as Ivanna Trump, and she let you grab her by the pussy.

Except that being a Muslim =/= becoming a carbon copy of Muhammed.

Which explains why every Muslim wants to be like Muhammed.

And god commanded the Jews to keep all the woman children of the Mideanites as sex slaves.

And that's a command for when the Jews were at war with the Mideanites back then.

And I've made it clear to you that I've no interest in your silly games.

It's not a game. Pinky swear.

So just guess already! You don't get beheaded for wrong answer.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem
those who think alike than those who think differently. -Nietzsche
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Re: My Islam Story

#33  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jan 26, 2018 6:43 pm

quas wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:And Lot had sex with his daughters. Doesn't mean all Jews aspire to incest.

That's different. In Islam, they recognised many prophets, but Muhammed was the ultimate. He was the only perfect prophet and thus also the most perfect human being ever lived, which is why Muslims are taught that every human being should emulate him. Lot wasn't the best prophet; in fact I think he was prophet #69 on the list of top 10 best prophets ever. Which is why you shouldn't fuck your daughters. Even if you happened to be as almighty as The Dear Leader of the Free World, and your daughter happened to be as hot as Ivanna Trump, and she let you grab her by the pussy.

Except that being a Muslim =/= becoming a carbon copy of Muhammed.

Which explains why every Muslim wants to be like Muhammed.

And god commanded the Jews to keep all the woman children of the Mideanites as sex slaves.

And that's a command for when the Jews were at war with the Mideanites back then.

And I've made it clear to you that I've no interest in your silly games.

It's not a game. Pinky swear.

So just guess already! You don't get beheaded for wrong answer.

So once again you make a bunch of rectally extracted claims and refuse to defend them. Good to know. :roll:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: My Islam Story

#34  Postby Sendraks » Jan 26, 2018 6:49 pm

quas wrote:So just guess already! You don't get beheaded for wrong answer.


Alternatively you could do the rational thing and present the argument and evidence for what looks to be a highly entertaining false dichotomy.
"One of the great tragedies of mankind is that morality has been hijacked by religion." - Arthur C Clarke

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Re: My Islam Story

#35  Postby Fallible » Jan 26, 2018 7:04 pm

Most boring party game ever.
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
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Re: My Islam Story

#36  Postby quas » Jan 26, 2018 7:05 pm

Sendraks wrote:
quas wrote:So just guess already! You don't get beheaded for wrong answer.


Alternatively you could do the rational thing and present the argument and evidence for what looks to be a highly entertaining false dichotomy.


I asked before, have you watched documentaries on the young men who joined ISIS? Because if you had, you'd have noticed that they all have these certain personality traits / characteristics that was evidently missing in this woman. And these characteristics that they had, made them stay as Muslims; whereas this woman -lacking these characteristics in the first place- ultimately left Islam even if she was actually more hardcore than them (she studied Islam much more diligently than these ISIS boys ever did).
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem
those who think alike than those who think differently. -Nietzsche
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Re: My Islam Story

#37  Postby Fallible » Jan 26, 2018 7:09 pm

Do you do children's parties?
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
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Re: My Islam Story

#38  Postby quas » Jan 26, 2018 7:18 pm

Fallible wrote:Do you do children's parties?


What do you have in mind? :naughty2:
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem
those who think alike than those who think differently. -Nietzsche
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Re: My Islam Story

#39  Postby Sendraks » Jan 26, 2018 7:41 pm

quas wrote:
I asked before, have you watched documentaries on the young men who joined ISIS? Because if you had, you'd have noticed that they all have these certain personality traits / characteristics that was evidently missing in this woman. And these characteristics that they had, made them stay as Muslims; whereas this woman -lacking these characteristics in the first place- ultimately left Islam even if she was actually more hardcore than them (she studied Islam much more diligently than these ISIS boys ever did).


Don't ask.
Show.
"One of the great tragedies of mankind is that morality has been hijacked by religion." - Arthur C Clarke

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Re: My Islam Story

#40  Postby Fallible » Jan 26, 2018 7:50 pm

quas wrote:
Fallible wrote:Do you do children's parties?


What do you have in mind? :naughty2:


Not that.
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
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