Please identify which verses of the Torah were altered.I will try one last time. Please bring quotes of verses from the Injil and the Zabur that are listed in the Qur'an. And please provide quotes as to the history and description of these books. Thank you.

duvduv wrote:Another interesting dimension of Islam aside from the different presentation of Jesus is that statement in the Quran that Jesus had a book called Injil, which is usually translated as Evangel, and assumed to be the New Testament books. But this is not true, the Injil is not the New Testament books, unlike the other book of King David referred to as Zabur, and commonly assumed to be the Book of Psalms and called a revealed book, which is unusual because the Psalms was simply a collection in the Jewish canon of psalms written by David and others.

This isnt only the claim of Islam, books given by Christians and all churchs as the holly book of Christianity are all named as "İncil" which means "müjde" in Turkish synonymous of "evangel" and "good news".

I got 2 copies both named İncil.

Dark energy wrote:

Alan B wrote:

Dark energy wrote:Stop lying,Quran never mentions about New Testament/old testament,injil is a the holy book of christians which the quran says has been subjected to human alternations,additions to suit the selfish needs of those in charge at that time.

Oh dear! Are you suggesting that the Koran or the message of the Koran has not been altered?

i dont think so,i need an evidence to believe koran was altered.

There are hadiths which claim that some of the pages of Koran eaten by a goat while Aishe was keeping it under her bed. They even claim that those hadiths included recm punishment ( stoning to death ) and thats why they apply it under sheria law.

Can't anyone just address the fact that Isa/Jesus had a revealed book called Injil, which was not the Tawrat. Plus there was a divinely revealed Zabur. Nothing of either book is known, nothing of them is quoted in the Qur'an. Nothing of their history or background is known. Can anyone explain why??

I can explain that what you are concerned with is an academic issue.

duvduv wrote:Can't anyone just address the fact that Isa/Jesus had a revealed book called Injil, which was not the Tawrat. Plus there was a divinely revealed Zabur. Nothing of either book is known, nothing of them is quoted in the Qur'an. Nothing of their history or background is known. Can anyone explain why??

Even Christians themselves dont have such a claim, do they ? 12 disciples of Jesus brough his teachings, letters and their memories about him under a book called bible and thats the way Islam accepts but on the other hand claim that it changed and thats why last prophet and Koran sent.

Why do you think that Islam should quote from Bible ? This contradicts with Islam's claim that Bible manipulated. And also Koran has a claim that its the word of Allah, Bible according to Christians too, is simply man written by the inspiration of holy spirit.

To tell the truth I think you're a little confused mate.

Because it mentions them and quotes stories identified in earlier Jewish books, that's why. Does it make sense to mention a book asvif everyone knows its name, but not a single quote?!

duvduv wrote:Because it mentions them and quotes stories identified in earlier Jewish books, that's why. Does it make sense to mention a book asvif everyone knows its name, but not a single quote?!

Koran tells the same stories we can find both in old and new testament but its hard to call it quotes because Koran has its own version of them.

Basic lines such as "Jesus born to Mary without father" are the same but lots of other things such as dying on cross for his followers sins, claiming of being God or his spirit are nit compatible with Koran.

I was talking about specific quotes from the mysterious books called Zabur and Injil. But somehow everyone gets drawn away from the fact that the Qur'an contains nothing from these two books!

Scot Dutchy wrote:http://www.studytoanswer.net/myths_ch1.html

That's a good article, Scot, even though it's from a Christian site - I didn't notice any apologetics. It's a pity that the articles are unattributed - although it appears as if they're all written by the webmaster, Timothy Dunkin. It would be a shame if the same person turned out to have written the Cretinist article - which is the usual boilerplate. Perhaps he's just a good copyist - better than the Koran compilers.
http://www.studytoanswer.net/origins/abiogenesis.html

As for the OP: we're now only about three months away from being able to read Dr. Fedeli's thesis on the Birmingham Koran fragments. I wonder if she goes into details about variants? ISTR there was some mention of it when the fuss was on.

Does anyone prove the dating of fragments, and that the fragments originate from an actual Qur'an rather than some other source?!

duvduv wrote:Does anyone prove the dating of fragments, and that the fragments originate from an actual Qur'an rather than some other source?!

Something that I never got to the bottom of, at the time, was the claim that the pages were from a larger portion of the Koran now in France. I can't remember the details but I'm pretty sure it was put about as a fact yet never justified in detail. The thesis should tell us.
There was a lot of stuff about dating, complete with graphs showing the likely ages. IIRC one extreme was before Mo could have written it, the peak some time after his death date, the other extreme late enough for it to have been a relatively late copy. There was also a lot of comment about how it was just the date of the parchment and the difficulty of dating the ink. It was probably discussed on here at the time.

Watch between 22:15 and 24:30.

This is a Turkish Bible I got from a church, look at that symbol on the cover and I wanted to show that its translated as "İncil" as you can see.

The Incil you presented is simply a Turkish translation of the NT which is generically considered the evangelion, but is not the book referred to in the Qur'an as Injil. Nothing is known about either the Injil or the Zabur. Strange....I don't see what the video's hypotheses based merely on conjecture has to do with the point about the Injil even after minute 22.....

Are there any teachings of the Prophet Isa actually in the Koran?

Alan B wrote:Are there any teachings of the Prophet Isa actually in the Koran?

Teachings no but there is a short story of him that he born to virgin Marry and in opposition to Bible Koran claims that he saved from cross, actually never even crucified God replaced him with someone else and saved him.

So if Muslims are to respect Isa 'as one of their own' how is it that they know nothing of his teachings but only handed down stories about him?
Are Muslims forbidden to examine the only source of his teachings: the Christian New Testament and thus enlighten themselves about a revered prophet?

Alan B wrote:So if Muslims are to respect Isa 'as one of their own' how is it that they know nothing of his teachings but only handed down stories about him?
Are Muslims forbidden to examine the only source of his teachings: the Christian New Testament and thus enlighten themselves about a revered prophet?

Their argument is exactly like that; there was and always only one religion and that was Islam. Isa was teaching Islam too just like all other prophets but in time people manipulated their teachings. Last book Koran came for that reason in order to restore the forgotten teaching, restored faith and as it came it replaced the former books old and new testament. So in that sense there was something wrong and Allah decided to correct it with Koran for the last time and also promised to protect it from all kind of human spoiling. Why he didn't protect former books, how he'll do it this time is deep theological questions.

Islam's attitude towards other religions is a deep topic among Islamic scholars too. Some say "one can go to heaven only practising his (Jewish, Christian) religion" others say "such an attitude is wrong because last prophet Mohammed came and corrected the religion so they have to see and follow the right path."

One thing is clear in a Muslim country you can't see Bible in the hand of a Muslim person. He says "I respect them but there can be anything interesting inside it for me, they can't distribute free or even sell it here" I won't even talk about the old testament because of the hatred started by Mohammed against Jews.

I guessed as much.

He says "I respect them but there can be anything interesting inside it for me, they can't distribute free or even sell it here"

Because of that attitude they are missing out on Isa's actual teachings. As far as I am concerned the teachings are purely 'spiritual' as opposed to the materialistic interpretations of the Christians.

Edit
This is what I mean by 'spiritual':
http://www.rationalskepticism.org/post2 ... r#p2402814

Why is it that some contributors feel the need to stray from the subject of the thread and not to deal with the issues discussed. Gentlemen, Please cite information about the Injil and Zabur, and discuss verses and teachings from each book as mentioned in the Quran. Without straying into other issues here. Thank you.