Origin of Quranic Islam

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Origin of Quranic Islam

#1  Postby duvduv » Jun 29, 2015 6:13 pm

How sure are people that the Quranic religion of Islam originated in the 7th century in the name of someone named Muhammad when so little information exists about this alleged 7th century religion until the 9th century under the Abbasid caliphate?
Isn't it more than possible that the Quranic religion unified a number of Arab monotheistic-friendly sects under the caliphate not unlike the NT religion under Constantine?

So much is left unanswered about the origins of Islam because even secular scholars adhere devotedly to the traditional Muslim narrative about its origins in the 7th century. Despite the fact that Mecca was not a large trading center. Despite the fact biographies of Muhammad did not emerge until the 9th century at the hands of Al Tabari in the 9th century allegedly based on works by Ibn Ishaq. Despite the fact that all descriptions of Muhammad from non-Arab sources describe Arabs led by a warlord named Mhmet, which could be Mahmud, Muhammad and even Ahmad. Even contemporary Jewish sources make no mention of the emergence of a new religion that allegedly swept through North Africa and into Iraq just shortly after the said death of the traditional Muhammad. Indeed, was there actually a Muslim "conquest" process at all, or merely an acceptance of the Arabs, not unlike the virtual painless surrender of Jerusalem to Saladin?
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Re: Origin of Quranic Islam

#2  Postby Peter Brown » Jun 29, 2015 7:59 pm

I find it all very confusing myself
But it is only Muslims who claim the Qur’an never changed

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Quran

Simple history was there were seven Qur’ans authorised by Muhammad then whittled down by various Caliphs until we get the one on the book shelf.

There is record of an Arab claiming he was a messianic prophet leading a gang of Bedu on holy camel raids of small towns and caravans. The two Empires, Christian and Zoroastrian had been at constant war with each other, both getting over the results of Bubonic plague. They had got to a point where they were employing Arabs as mercenaries in their wars, Anyhow this Muhammad united the Arabs, the Empires couldn’t cope with the devastating attacks on trade routes, and surrendered, hence Islam spread like wildfire.


Tom Holland wrote a book about it.
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Re: Origin of Quranic Islam

#3  Postby duvduv » Jun 29, 2015 8:15 pm

So much of the Quranic stories of the Old Testament are found in places like Midrash Rabba. Whoever put the Quran together was acquainted directly or indirectly with many known Midrashic sources.
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Re: Origin of Quranic Islam

#4  Postby Peter Brown » Jun 29, 2015 9:19 pm

Muhammad's first wife was Jewish, but the Qur’an also gets loads of its religious plagiarisms and testimony wrong too.

I think he got scraps of info at camp fire tales and forgets or makes stuff up to impress his bandit crew, as you do.
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Re: Origin of Quranic Islam

#5  Postby duvduv » Jun 29, 2015 11:15 pm

If the Mohammed of the Quran never existed, then the cut and paste would have been some team of scribes, probably under the Abbasids in Baghdad in the 8th century ...
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Re: Origin of Quranic Islam

#6  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jun 30, 2015 6:37 am

Tom Hollands documentary and what happened to it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam:_The_Untold_Story

The documentary itself:

Myths in islam Women and islam Musilm opinion polls


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Re: Origin of Quranic Islam

#7  Postby Peter Brown » Jun 30, 2015 12:54 pm

I do like Tom’s argument that Mecca doesn’t have olive groves so how can it be the same one as written about. Or why to the very earliest mosque face somewhere else to post Qur’an ones.

I think the difference between Islam and Christianity was the men ordered the scribe to put the Qur’an together all knew this man called Muhammad. The seven versions of the Qur’an Muhammad ordered his scribes to compile was destroyed by fire along with the Ali version and the Abu Bakr versions by Uhman after he ordered the new and revised copy in the latest Arabic text that we see today be compiled, or parts that are missing (?) were eaten by a tribal goat.
The New Testament was a best guess at what the religion was base on by accepting or rejecting what texts already existed.

But that is just the Qur’an, which for example tells Muslim to pray, but not what to say, or how many times a day, unlike the NT which has the lords prayer and the bread and wine ritual at meetings. It tell you it is meant to be easy to understand, but we know Muhammad had seven versions because one Arab dialect could change the meanings of the written word of Mo’s day. But notwithstanding that, Chapter 10 verse 1 is just three letters, A L M. Now like what is that meant to mean??? Allah Loves Mo? Allah Loves Morons? Then you get the tall tales of talking ants, prophet she-camels, beef steaks that raze the dead. Serious WTF has this got to do with a message or explaining a revelation?

So to be a Muslim you need more than the Qur’an because it fails to say how many times a day to pray, to it saying how important it is to be like Muhammad and his example, and followers were asking well what brand of toothpaste did he use? So now you have Hadith on how to enter a toilet, how to wipe your bum with 3 stones. :/

During that time period of Islam all types of woo might have slipped in, like Jews pray three times a day, so Arabs must be better and pray five times a day like the Zoroastrians of Persia.

The Arabs take over Jerusalem, and Jews who have been banned return and build a wooden temple on the old holy of holy mount, The Caliph gets enraged, knock it down, they find a stone with a hole, and now we get the Dome of the Rock being built tied to the legend of Mo waking up one night and telling the tribe he had just returned after a visit with god one night. Like a huge time gap between the Dome being built and the tale being first told isn’t a clue to it being bullshit?
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Re: Origin of Quranic Islam

#8  Postby Oeditor » Jun 30, 2015 2:17 pm

Muslims have a problem in coming to grips with the origin of the Koran, and hence Islam. They believe that the Koran was written by god at the time when he created the universe. Most of us here would dismiss that as nonsense but it makes it very difficult to have a sensible discussion about it with Muslims.
The simplest explanation is that Mohammed himself - or scribes working on his behalf - wrote it but then we have to worry about the historicity of Mohammed himself. Personally, I wonder bout its ridiculous ordering of chapters by size and the assigning of a chronology to the parts nonetheless since that requires buying in to the traditional story of its composition.
A third problem is coming up with an alternative chronology. If the Koran was written wholly after the supposed events, purely to bolster the young Arab empire, we have to fit dates to such events as can be date and the dates of any genuine manuscripts. In the Oldest Koran thread, a ms found in Sanaa is said to be from 671 ad and a newly rediscovered on from - possibly - to 662 (give or take 13 years). Mohammed is supposed to have died in 632 so we probably need to fit its compilation into a period of 30-40 years if those mss are substantially complete. Probably easier to fit if it was written from scratch for a purpose than if it grew organically being changed as it went.
Anyway, thanks for starting the thread. I hope it runs a while.
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Re: Origin of Quranic Islam

#9  Postby Peter Brown » Jun 30, 2015 2:39 pm

I got the impression the woo was more like god writes a book every time someone is born, like a ‘spiritual’ this is your life in advance edition. So you have this life book mixed in with a couple of Angel who read the book acting like Eamonn Andrews with spoilers.
This book is up there in gods realm and not down here and never has been. So when they say it has never changed, well that book can’t being in some celestial library.
But this isn’t only what believers say, as the This is your Life edition recorded on Earth was not only narrated by god, but exactly the same copy text as the one up there. Which of course is impossible as cause the headache of what Arabic did god write it in, why did he use non Arabic words, which then makes all of this unchanging single version of the Qur'an making as much sense as three in one gods.
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Re: Origin of Quranic Islam

#10  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jun 30, 2015 3:01 pm

I have always found this little series of articles interesting:

http://www.islam-watch.org/Kammuna/Collection-of-Quran-1.htm

Especially this bit in Part2:

Also, Arab tribes had their own dialects. So, variable versions of the Qur’an were expected. Uthman’s task was impossible right from the start. Also, the consonantal text was unpointed. In Arabic language, this indeed spells catastrophe as to the meaning of words and verses in the Qur’an. Ibn Warraq writes:

….the consonantal text was unpointed, that is to say, the dots that distinguish, for example, a “b” from a “t” or a “th” were missing. Several other letters (f and q; h, and kh; s and d; r and z; s and sh; d and dh, t and z) were indistinguishable (my emphasis). In other words, the Koran was written in a scripta defective. As a result, a great many variant readings were possible according to the way the text was pointed (had the dots added).[7]


And on it goes.
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Re: Origin of Quranic Islam

#11  Postby iskander » Jun 30, 2015 3:33 pm

Some Islamic beliefs can be traced to pre-Islamic times.
The black stone was venerated at the Kaaba in pre-Islamic pagan times ,

The Semitic cultures of the Middle East had a tradition of using unusual stones to mark places of worship, a phenomenon which is reflected in the Hebrew Bible as well as the Qur'an,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Stone


And the Kaaba is also an ancient belief.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba

They thronged to this place annually and worshipped their personal gods, It was over Four Thousand years later that the last of the line of prophet (S), Muhammad Ibne Abdullah entered Makka triumphantly, went inside the Ka’aba and, with the help of his cousin and son in law ‘Ali Ibne Abi Talib, (as) destroyed all the idols of Ka’aba with their own hands


http://www.al-islam.org/story-of-the-ho ... ouse-allah
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Re: Origin of Quranic Islam

#12  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jun 30, 2015 8:13 pm

duvduv wrote:How sure are people that the Quranic religion of Islam originated in the 7th century in the name of someone named Muhammad when so little information exists about this alleged 7th century religion until the 9th century under the Abbasid caliphate?

This is nonsense.
Egypt and other parts of the Eastern Roman empire were conquered during the 7th century, by the Radishun Caliphes.
We have sources on Islam predating the 9th century Abbasid caliphate.
We know, for example, that Umar* revoked the ban on Christianity and allowed Christians to worship in Jerusalem.
Read the works by Jacques Waardenburg, among others.
* Caliph from 634-644

Heck, we have people like John of Damascus who wrote polemics against Islam in the 7th and 8th centuries, demonstrating that not just were they aware of it's existence, they were familiar with several of it's core tenets:
There is also the superstition of the Ishmaelites which to this day prevails and keeps people in error, being a forerunner of the Antichrist. They are descended from Ishmael, [who] was born to Abraham of Agar, and for this reason they are called both Agarenes and Ishmaelites. They are also called Saracens, which is derived from Sarras kenoi, or destitute of Sara, because of what Agar said to the angel: ‘Sara hath sent me away destitute.’ [99] These used to be idolaters and worshiped the morning star and Aphrodite, whom in their own language they called Khabár, which means great. [100] And so down to the time of Heraclius they were very great idolaters. From that time to the present a false prophet named Mohammed has appeared in their midst. This man, after having chanced upon the Old and New Testaments and likewise, it seems, having conversed with an Arian monk, [101] devised his own heresy. Then, having insinuated himself into the good graces of the people by a show of seeming piety, he gave out that a certain book had been sent down to him from heaven. He had set down some ridiculous compositions in this book of his and he gave it to them as an object of veneration.

He says that there is one God, creator of all things, who has neither been begotten nor has begotten. [102] He says that the Christ is the Word of God and His Spirit, but a creature and a servant, and that He was begotten, without seed, of Mary the sister of Moses and Aaron. [103] For, he says, the Word and God and the Spirit entered into Mary and she brought forth Jesus, who was a prophet and servant of God. And he says that the Jews wanted to crucify Him in violation of the law, and that they seized His shadow and crucified this. But the Christ Himself was not crucified, he says, nor did He die, for God out of His love for Him took Him to Himself into heaven. [104] And he says this, that when the Christ had ascended into heaven God asked Him: ‘O Jesus, didst thou say: “I am the Son of God and God”?’ And Jesus, he says, answered: ‘Be merciful to me, Lord. Thou knowest that I did not say this and that I did not scorn to be thy servant. But sinful men have written that I made this statement, and they have lied about me and have fallen into error.’ And God answered and said to Him: ‘I know that thou didst not say this word.” [105] There are many other extraordinary and quite ridiculous things in this book which he boasts was sent down to him from God. But when we ask: ‘And who is there to testify that God gave him the book? And which of the prophets foretold that such a prophet would rise up?’—they are at a loss. And we remark that Moses received the Law on Mount Sinai, with God appearing in the sight of all the people in cloud, and fire, and darkness, and storm. And we say that all the Prophets from Moses on down foretold the coming of Christ and how Christ God (and incarnate Son of God) was to come and to be crucified and die and rise again, and how He was to be the judge of the living and dead. Then, when we say: ‘How is it that this prophet of yours did not come in the same way, with others bearing witness to him? And how is it that God did not in your presence present this man with the book to which you refer, even as He gave the Law to Moses, with the people looking on and the mountain smoking, so that you, too, might have certainty?’—they answer that God does as He pleases. ‘This,’ we say, ‘We know, but we are asking how the book came down to your prophet.’ Then they reply that the book came down to him while he was asleep. Then we jokingly say to them that, as long as he received the book in his sleep and did not actually sense the operation, then the popular adage applies to him (which runs: You’re spinning me dreams.) [106]

For more, see: http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx
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Re: Origin of Quranic Islam

#13  Postby duvduv » Jul 01, 2015 12:06 am

Whethere those early conquerors were Quranic Muslims or some kind of "Hagarites" as described in chronicles, or "Saracenes" is what you are driving at.
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Re: Origin of Quranic Islam

#14  Postby duvduv » Jul 01, 2015 12:07 am

And in the mosque in Jerusalem there are allegedly very early engravings stating "La Illaha Illa Allah" with no mention of Muhammad.......

Scot Dutchy wrote:I have always found this little series of articles interesting:

http://www.islam-watch.org/Kammuna/Collection-of-Quran-1.htm

Especially this bit in Part2:

Also, Arab tribes had their own dialects. So, variable versions of the Qur’an were expected. Uthman’s task was impossible right from the start. Also, the consonantal text was unpointed. In Arabic language, this indeed spells catastrophe as to the meaning of words and verses in the Qur’an. Ibn Warraq writes:

….the consonantal text was unpointed, that is to say, the dots that distinguish, for example, a “b” from a “t” or a “th” were missing. Several other letters (f and q; h, and kh; s and d; r and z; s and sh; d and dh, t and z) were indistinguishable (my emphasis). In other words, the Koran was written in a scripta defective. As a result, a great many variant readings were possible according to the way the text was pointed (had the dots added).[7]


And on it goes.
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Re: Origin of Quranic Islam

#15  Postby duvduv » Jul 01, 2015 2:14 am

I watched Tom Holland's film, and was a bit disappointed because it seemed to drag on without getting to the central points, and he seemed to assume the historicity of a Muhammad in the 7th century as a starting point uncritically. And he did not delve deeply into the dating issues and implications of the lack of historical information about Quranic Islam as the religion of the Arab conquerors, although he hints at it several times, i.e. regarding Muawiyya as the challenger to the alleged Muslims of Kufa and Kerbala coming from Damascus.
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Re: Origin of Quranic Islam

#16  Postby Oldskeptic » Jul 01, 2015 2:30 am

duvduv wrote:How sure are people that the Quranic religion of Islam originated in the 7th century in the name of someone named Muhammad when so little information exists about this alleged 7th century religion until the 9th century under the Abbasid caliphate?
Isn't it more than possible that the Quranic religion unified a number of Arab monotheistic-friendly sects under the caliphate not unlike the NT religion under Constantine?

So much is left unanswered about the origins of Islam because even secular scholars adhere devotedly to the traditional Muslim narrative about its origins in the 7th century. Despite the fact that Mecca was not a large trading center. Despite the fact biographies of Muhammad did not emerge until the 9th century at the hands of Al Tabari in the 9th century allegedly based on works by Ibn Ishaq. Despite the fact that all descriptions of Muhammad from non-Arab sources describe Arabs led by a warlord named Mhmet, which could be Mahmud, Muhammad and even Ahmad. Even contemporary Jewish sources make no mention of the emergence of a new religion that allegedly swept through North Africa and into Iraq just shortly after the said death of the traditional Muhammad. Indeed, was there actually a Muslim "conquest" process at all, or merely an acceptance of the Arabs, not unlike the virtual painless surrender of Jerusalem to Saladin?


Oh goody! A Historical Muhmmad thread.

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Re: Origin of Quranic Islam

#17  Postby iskander » Jul 01, 2015 2:45 am

LOL

The origins of the Koran is the story of Ibrahim , a Rasul of Allah , and his elder son Ishmael, another Rasul of Allah.

27. And We bestowed on him [Ibrâhim (Abraham)], Ishâque (Isaac) and Ya'qûb (Jacob), and ordained among his offspring Prophethood and the Book [i.e. the Taurât (Torah) (to Mûsa ¬ Moses), the Injeel (Gospel) (to 'Iesa ¬ Jesus), the Qur'ân (to Muhammad ), all from the offspring of Ibrâhim (Abraham)], and We granted him his reward in this world, and verily, in the Hereafter he is indeed among the righteous.

Surah Al-Ankabut The Quran 29:27


Ismail (Ishmael) was the elder son of Ibrahim . Both of them were Rasul of Allah . The final Messenger of Allah, Muhammad was a direct descendent of Ismail .
Muslims commemorate the Sai of Hajar in finding water for her son Ismail as one of the key rituals of Hajj and ‘Umrah; by running between the hills of Safa and Marwah seven times.
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Re: Origin of Quranic Islam

#18  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jul 01, 2015 7:47 am

duvduv wrote:Whethere those early conquerors were Quranic Muslims or some kind of "Hagarites" as described in chronicles, or "Saracenes" is what you are driving at.


As has been related, this Mohammed wrote many ridiculous books, to each one of which he set a title. For example, there is the book On Woman, [109] in which he plainly makes legal provision for taking four wives and, if it be possible, a thousand concubines—as many as one can maintain, besides the four wives. He also made it legal to put away whichever wife one might wish, and, should one so wish, to take to oneself another in the same way. Mohammed had a friend named Zeid. This man had a beautiful wife with whom Mohammed fell in love. Once, when they were sitting together, Mohammed said: ‘Oh, by the way, God has commanded me to take your wife.’ The other answered: ‘You are an apostle. Do as God has told you and take my wife.’ Rather—to tell the story over from the beginning—he said to him: ‘God has given me the command that you put away your wife.’ And he put her away. Then several days later: ‘Now,’ he said, ‘God has commanded me to take her.’ Then, after he had taken her and committed adultery with her, he made this law: ‘Let him who will put away his wife. And if, after having put her away, he should return to her, let another marry her. For it is not lawful to take her unless she have been married by another. Furthermore, if a brother puts away his wife, let his brother marry her, should he so wish.’ [110] In the same book he gives such precepts as this: ‘Work the land which God hath given thee and beautify it. And do this, and do it in such a manner” [111]—not to repeat all the obscene things that he did.
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Re: Origin of Quranic Islam

#19  Postby Peter Brown » Jul 01, 2015 8:28 am

duvduv wrote:Whethere those early conquerors were Quranic Muslims or some kind of "Hagarites" as described in chronicles, or "Saracenes" is what you are driving at.


I gather they weren't named Muslims by outsiders for quite some time; for instance at the time of the Crusades the European forces just called them Saracens. Saracen was just another historical name for the Arabs as was Hagarites.
Arabs were just regarded by the civilised world as savage, barbaric, ignorant tribal desert dwellers that you didn't invite to parties in polite society.

Perhaps this clip by Klingschor is what you’re looking for; it has a few references at the end and a link in the text.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34Zq3WJowrU

http://research-islam.blogspot.com.au/2 ... islam.html

You wouldn't go far wrong if you watch more of Klingschors earlier work?
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Re: Origin of Quranic Islam

#20  Postby Peter Brown » Jul 01, 2015 8:40 am

Other plaaces you can dig out chat on Islam would be iTunes, which have old Jinn and Tonic podcasts, and You Tube mirrored uploads of the old shows still up.
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