UK Imam condemns face veil

quisquose · **#41** by **quisquose** » Sep 16, 2014 12:04 pm

Muslim academic gets death threats over women and gay-friendly mosque

A Muslim academic is vowing to push ahead with the launch of his woman and gay-friendly mosque in South Africa, despite receiving death threats.

Taj Hargey, director of the Muslim Educational Centre of Oxford, a group of "forward thinking" Muslims, said his Open Mosque will welcome all genders, religions and sexual orientations when it opens in Wynberg, a Cape Town suburb, on Friday.

More here.

Shrunk · **#42** by **Shrunk** » Sep 16, 2014 3:00 pm

Imagination Theory wrote:Let's stop the pressure of wanting females to look and dress and talk and act a certain way (which happens even in the West).
By the by, often times I wear a veil and a few times I've worn the niqab and I truly liked it. It's like wearing a blanket, it is comforting and makes you feel safe. And if you are used to it it can be painful to take it off outside.

Yes, I imagine it would feel much like I would feel if I had to attend a formal occasion in gym shorts. There's nothing inherently wrong with it, but it goes against how I have been socialized to behave. So am I the victim of social pressure? Am I being "forced" to wear a suit and tie to a funeral?

Shrunk · **#43** by **Shrunk** » Sep 16, 2014 3:01 pm

quisquose wrote:Muslim academic gets death threats over women and gay-friendly mosque

A Muslim academic is vowing to push ahead with the launch of his woman and gay-friendly mosque in South Africa, despite receiving death threats.

Taj Hargey, director of the Muslim Educational Centre of Oxford, a group of "forward thinking" Muslims, said his Open Mosque will welcome all genders, religions and sexual orientations when it opens in Wynberg, a Cape Town suburb, on Friday.

More here.

Yeah, like you couldn't see that coming. Been nice knowing you, Taj Hargey.

tolman · **#44** by **tolman** » Sep 16, 2014 3:59 pm

Shrunk wrote:
Imagination Theory wrote:Let's stop the pressure of wanting females to look and dress and talk and act a certain way (which happens even in the West).
By the by, often times I wear a veil and a few times I've worn the niqab and I truly liked it. It's like wearing a blanket, it is comforting and makes you feel safe. And if you are used to it it can be painful to take it off outside.

Yes, I imagine it would feel much like I would feel if I had to attend a formal occasion in gym shorts. There's nothing inherently wrong with it, but it goes against how I have been socialized to behave. So am I the victim of social pressure? Am I being "forced" to wear a suit and tie to a funeral?

I suppose the difference is that when you wear a suit rather than shorts, you're presumably not doing so because you think that if you wore shorts, women would be unable to contain their sexual desire, nor are you putting up a significant barrier to normal human communication.

You may be making a nod to either general social attitudes of 'smartness/appropriateness' or to those of particular individuals, but you are neither intentionally or unintentionally transmitting a message to a whole group of people that you consider that group to be essentially incapable of acting like adults.

Shrunk · **#45** by **Shrunk** » Sep 16, 2014 4:28 pm

Maybe so. In a liberal society, however, we don't generally legislate what people may or may not wear because of the "message" their choice of clothing might convey, do we?

tolman · **#46** by **tolman** » Sep 16, 2014 5:11 pm

Shrunk wrote:Maybe so. In a liberal society, however, we don't generally legislate what people may or may not wear because of the "message" their choice of clothing might convey, do we?

We certainly permit 'discrimination' when people wear things which make them unidentifiable (try wearing a motorcycle helmet in a jewellers) or wear things which may upset other people in situations where other kinds of discrimination would be legally prohibited.

Who is arguing for legally banning the wearing of masks in public by adults?

Shrunk · **#47** by **Shrunk** » Sep 16, 2014 5:54 pm

tolman wrote:
Shrunk wrote:Maybe so. In a liberal society, however, we don't generally legislate what people may or may not wear because of the "message" their choice of clothing might convey, do we?

We certainly permit 'discrimination' when people wear things which make them unidentifiable (try wearing a motorcycle helmet in a jewellers) or wear things which may upset other people in situations where other kinds of discrimination would be legally prohibited.

Who is arguing for legally banning the wearing of masks in public by adults?

Well, Taj Hargey, they guy this thread is about, for one. France has actually gone ahead and implemented such a ban. And the gov't of the province of Quebec planned to but was defeated in an election before they could.

tolman · **#48** by **tolman** » Sep 16, 2014 7:02 pm

He doesn't seem to be arguing for a ban based on men potentially getting the 'message' that an individual distrusts them, but because mask-wearing makes it more likely that Muslims as a whole will tend to be be seen as medieval peasants.

Personally, when it comes to adults, I'd tend to think it was better to allow the small fraction who wish to display their wish for separateness, their distrust of me as a man, their desire to broadcast their religion and/or their conformity to bogus claims of religious necessity to self-identify so I can treat them as I think such behaviour deserves.

Though I can understand where he's coming from - I'm not likely to suffer unwanted side-effects of some women wearing masks in the way that he and his community might.

However, I'm not convinced the law is a great tool to use to protect a community from the potential negative perceptions of others resulting from the actions of some of its members. I'd prefer instead that it was possible to disincentivise the actions of the minority in other ways.

viocjit · **#49** by **viocjit** » Sep 27, 2014 11:04 pm

Shrunk wrote:
<snip>
Well, Taj Hargey, they guy this thread is about, for one. France has actually gone ahead and implemented such a ban. And the gov't of the province of Quebec planned to but was defeated in an election before they could.

I'm French and I can say you that this law doesn't forbide to wear a hijab. It forbide to wear a cloth that hide the whole face such balaclava , niqab , wear a bandanna to hide your face etc...

Also , I precise that if a police unit see a woman with a niqab they will not bust her (in the majority of case) to avoid any riots. They will not arrest her to protect themselves too. If a police patrol say a thing to a woman who wear that cloth such "Bonjour , c'est la police , vos papiers s'il vous plaît." (Good morning / afternoon , this is police , your ID [litteraly : papers] , please).
These policemen risk to be beaten then finish at hospital or killed when this is not the two possibilities if they die in a hospital.
The French state lose juridically the control of many zones (more than 1000).
A day I was to a bus stop in a Muslim ghetto in another city than mine (I was there because it was necessary for an appointment of those who are looking for a job , this is a place in which I go rarely).
A man was driving an ATV in the street. (In France it is illegal to drive this kind of vehicle in the street).
A police unit pass there with a car they didn't tried to arrest the person.
Also it is know that many policemen tolare that people smoke pot even if French laws forbide it.
I know someone who called the police (it was at the end of 90's) because a group of people were too noisy this night.
The operator answered that he / she refuse to sent a police unit because they feared to act.
In many places of France in which police refuse to go people organize millitia (generally non-harmed) for that drug dealers get up of their neighbourhood. If this situation continue I fear to see millitia that are more radical (harmed millitia with guns) in the next decades. I precise that all kind of harmed millitia is illegal in France.

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