Understanding the Violence in Islam

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Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#241  Postby quas » Oct 03, 2015 7:00 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:The attacks on abortion clinics are acts of legal sanctions against infant murderers.

And how is that any more religiously motivated than a criminal court that hands out death penalty to a murderer?


Article doesn't say much. Can you explain how he has been motivated by Christian ideology more than any other political ideology or mental problems?

Unlike your repeated handwaving you mean?

Is that a tacit admission that you are doing the same, albeit as a reciprocative gesture?
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Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#242  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 03, 2015 8:51 pm

quas wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
quas wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:Al qaeda isnt motivated by Islamic ideology, poitn to the Koranic verse that says you must destroy the World Trade Centre.

The destruction of WTC, if indeed done by Al Qaeda, would be an act of war from Al Qaeda committed against non-believers.

Doesn't follow. It would be an act of aggression against the USA.

That's a more accurate description, still doesn't rule out the religious motivation behind the attack though.



I wouldn't quite call it religious motivation: instead I'd say that it was the perspective granted them through their narrative, part of which is religious, part of which is social and cultural. They weren't preferentially targeting non-believers with 9/11 - they were wantonly killing anyone in an act against the USA, perceived as the great evil.
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Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#243  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Oct 03, 2015 9:03 pm

quas wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:The attacks on abortion clinics are acts of legal sanctions against infant murderers.

And how is that any more religiously motivated than a criminal court that hands out death penalty to a murderer?

Because the specific law being followed in this case is religious/scriptural, rather than secular.


Oh look, more blind dismissal.
Did you even read the article?
Among other things, it mentions hiw Breivik was opposed to immigration due to religious intolerance towards Islam, based on his Christian beliefs.


Can you explain how he has been motivated by Christian ideology more than any other political ideology or mental problems?

Read the article.

Unlike your repeated handwaving you mean?

Is that a tacit admission that you are doing the same, albeit as a reciprocative gesture?

Nope, its pointing out the hypocricy of your accusations vis a vis my assertions, when all you have to offer is vapid handwaving.
Last edited by Thomas Eshuis on Oct 04, 2015 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#244  Postby quas » Oct 04, 2015 3:56 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
quas wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:The attacks on abortion clinics are acts of legal sanctions against infant murderers.

And how is that any more religiously motivated than a criminal court that hands out death penalty to a murderer?

Because the specific law being followed in this case is religious/scriptural, rather than

What/which religious law specifically? Point it out.

Oh look, more blind dismissal.
Did you even read the article?
Among other things, it mentions hiw Breivik was opposed to immigration due to religious intolerance towards Islam, based on his Christian beliefs.

So you have read the article, presumably more thoroughly than I have, and all you can come up with is he is intolerant towards Islam. Just like Geert Wilders!

That's weak, dude.

Nope, its pointing out the hypocricy of your accusations vis a vis my assertions, when all you have to offer is vapid handwaving.

Even weaker!
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those who think alike than those who think differently. -Nietzsche
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Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#245  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Oct 04, 2015 8:56 am

quas wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
quas wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:The attacks on abortion clinics are acts of legal sanctions against infant murderers.

And how is that any more religiously motivated than a criminal court that hands out death penalty to a murderer?

Because the specific law being followed in this case is religious/scriptural, rather than

What/which religious law specifically? Point it out.

The commandment: thou shalt not murder, for example.
Again, your personal incredulity and ignorance doesn't refute the fact that they do this because of religious motivations.
They didn't call themselves the Army of God for nothing.

quas wrote:
Oh look, more blind dismissal.
Did you even read the article?
Among other things, it mentions hiw Breivik was opposed to immigration due to religious intolerance towards Islam, based on his Christian beliefs.

So you have read the article, presumably more thoroughly than I have, and all you can come up with is he is intolerant towards Islam. Just like Geert Wilders!

That's weak, dude.

Aand we're back to trolling I see.
Unlike Wilders, he's specifically intolerant of Islam, because of his Christian beliefs.
Once again you offer nothing but puerile dismissal quas.
I'm done with your vapid trolling.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#246  Postby Nicko » Oct 04, 2015 9:16 am

quas wrote:Can you explain how he has been motivated by Christian ideology more than any other political ideology or mental problems?


Can you do the same for any given Muslim terrorist?
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Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#247  Postby NineBerry » Oct 04, 2015 9:20 am

Having read Breivik's manifest, I wouldn't call him a believer. I don't think he actually believed in any God stuff but like so many people he believed in belief, i.e. a common religion as a means of identification for a group to rally around.
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Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#248  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Oct 04, 2015 9:25 am

Breivik claimed that he is a Christian in various forums, but most explicitly and in greatest detail in the 1,500-page manifesto he compiled over several months and posted on the Internet.

"At the age of 15 I chose to be baptised [sic] and confirmed in the Norwegian State Church," the 32-year-old Breivik wrote. "I consider myself to be 100 percent Christian."

But he also fiercely disagrees with the politics of most Protestant churches and the Roman Catholic Church.

"Regarding my personal relationship with God, I guess I'm not an excessively religious man," he writes. "I am first and foremost a man of logic. However, I am a supporter of a monocultural Christian Europe."

Breivik fashions himself a "cultural Christian" and a modern-day crusader in a resurrected order of the medieval Knights Templar, riding out to do battle against squishy "multiculturalism" and the onslaught of "Islamization" -- and to suffer the glory of Christian martyrdom in the process.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#249  Postby quas » Oct 04, 2015 10:44 am

NineBerry wrote:Having read Breivik's manifest, I wouldn't call him a believer. I don't think he actually believed in any God stuff but like so many people he believed in belief, i.e. a common religion as a means of identification for a group to rally around.


You think Hitler shared a similar belief?
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem
those who think alike than those who think differently. -Nietzsche
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Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#250  Postby Scot Dutchy » Oct 04, 2015 11:03 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:Unlike Wilders, he's specifically intolerant of Islam, because of his Christian beliefs.


Wilders is van oorsprong rooms-katholiek, maar hij liet zich uitschrijven uit de kerkelijke registers toen hij meerderjarig werd en is nu een agnost.[2][3][4][5]


Brief translation:
"He was born a catholic but he has had himself removed from the church registers. In adulthood he became an agnostic".

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geert_Wilders
Last edited by Scot Dutchy on Oct 04, 2015 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#251  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Oct 04, 2015 11:09 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:Unlike Wilders, he's specifically intolerant of Islam, because of his Christian beliefs.


Wilders is van oorsprong rooms-katholiek, maar hij liet zich uitschrijven uit de kerkelijke registers toen hij meerderjarig werd en is nu een agnost.[2][3][4][5]


Brief translation:
"He was born a catholic but he has had himself from the church registers. In adulthood he became an agnostic".

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geert_Wilders

That's confirming my point. :thumbup:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#252  Postby Scot Dutchy » Oct 04, 2015 11:11 am

He is very pro Israel as well.

Missed a word in my last post. :oops:
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Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#253  Postby quas » Oct 04, 2015 12:14 pm

Nicko wrote:
quas wrote:Can you explain how he has been motivated by Christian ideology more than any other political ideology or mental problems?


Can you do the same for any given Muslim terrorist?


Given the contents of this thread (especially post #245), I think that's a question better addressed to Thomas Eshuis.
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Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#254  Postby NineBerry » Oct 04, 2015 7:51 pm

quas wrote:
NineBerry wrote:Having read Breivik's manifest, I wouldn't call him a believer. I don't think he actually believed in any God stuff but like so many people he believed in belief, i.e. a common religion as a means of identification for a group to rally around.


You think Hitler shared a similar belief?


Going by his public utterances, no. But Hitler also wasn't a Christian, either.
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Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#255  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Oct 04, 2015 9:17 pm

NineBerry wrote:
quas wrote:
NineBerry wrote:Having read Breivik's manifest, I wouldn't call him a believer. I don't think he actually believed in any God stuff but like so many people he believed in belief, i.e. a common religion as a means of identification for a group to rally around.


You think Hitler shared a similar belief?


Going by his public utterances, no. But Hitler also wasn't a Christian, either.

He was, according to his own writings.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#256  Postby NineBerry » Oct 04, 2015 9:26 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
NineBerry wrote:
Going by his public utterances, no. But Hitler also wasn't a Christian, either.

He was, according to his own writings.


He said that in some speeches. But if you see the big picture and read the materials that were meant for the future, it is clear he was no Christian but had some form of Panentheist beliefs.
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Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#257  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Oct 04, 2015 9:38 pm

His writings re: personal religious belief were contradictory. He called himself a Christian in one breath and decryed the evil and foolishness of Christianity in another.
what a terrible image
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Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#258  Postby surreptitious57 » Oct 04, 2015 10:17 pm

Christianity was convenient to Hitler for two reasons. Germany was a Christian country and also Judaism was an alternative belief system to it [ although he thought of the Jews as a race rather than as a religion ] But regardless of any of his public pronouncements it is obvious that he was first and foremost a Fascist and that was most important of all. I once remember saying over at Atheist Forums that he was not a Christian and only used it for ulterior motive. And then I proceeded to get thoroughly shafted for saying such a stupid thing. In spite of that I still think that the evidence is circumstantial although I keep that to myself as I do not want to be shafted for a second time
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Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#259  Postby quas » Oct 05, 2015 2:30 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
NineBerry wrote:
quas wrote:
NineBerry wrote:Having read Breivik's manifest, I wouldn't call him a believer. I don't think he actually believed in any God stuff but like so many people he believed in belief, i.e. a common religion as a means of identification for a group to rally around.


You think Hitler shared a similar belief?


Going by his public utterances, no. But Hitler also wasn't a Christian, either.

He was, according to his own writings.


Writings meant for public consumption? If he had a pragmatic opportunism towards Christianity, using it because it could serve his agenda, he had to publicly declare himself as 100% Christian.
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Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#260  Postby quas » Oct 05, 2015 2:38 am

surreptitious57 wrote:Christianity was convenient to Hitler for two reasons. Germany was a Christian country and also Judaism was an alternative belief system to it [ although he thought of the Jews as a race rather than as a religion ] But regardless of any of his public pronouncements it is obvious that he was first and foremost a Fascist and that was most important of all. I once remember saying over at Atheist Forums that he was not a Christian and only used it for ulterior motive. And then I proceeded to get thoroughly shafted for saying such a stupid thing. In spite of that I still think that the evidence is circumstantial although I keep that to myself as I do not want to be shafted for a second time


Do you suspect that those forumers have an ulterior motive for outing Hitler as a Christian? I mean, lots of Christians and other religious folks have insisted that Hitler's holocaust was motivated by atheistic principles, so those atheists have the need to defend themselves by claiming that Hitler was actually a Christian.
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