Understanding the Violence in Islam

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Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#261  Postby surreptitious57 » Oct 05, 2015 3:26 am

I suspect that it was simply a question of interpretation given the ambiguity of evidence. And that I
opted for one while every one else opted for the other. And as I was in the minority I was therefore
assumed to be wrong. And so obviously did not see it clearly as they did although I did learn from it
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Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#262  Postby Blip » Oct 05, 2015 1:06 pm


!
MODNOTE
Peter Brown, this is a warning about your posts here, here and here, in which you repeatedly misrepresent the arguments of another member, and your post here, which is off topic.

Such posting contravenes the Forum Users’ Agreement, specifically section 1.2e, which concerns inflammatory posting.

As this is your fourth active warning, you will now be suspended from the forum for one month. Please don’t continue to post in this way on your return or you may attract further sanction.

Any comments on this modnote or moderation should not be made in the thread as they will be considered off topic.
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Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#263  Postby Peter Brown » Oct 05, 2015 6:51 pm

Absolute proof the Mods here are so fucking bias towards the regressive forum members that I can quote a Thomas (who I call Thomas because every fucking regressive here can call me Peter and get away with it) in his crap and they will permanently ban me. And yes they did PERMANENTLY for a few hours become it was changed to a suspension.

For everyone else seek your Islam updates elsewhere
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Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#264  Postby quas » Oct 05, 2015 6:56 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:I suspect that it was simply a question of interpretation given the ambiguity of evidence. And that I
opted for one while every one else opted for the other. And as I was in the minority I was therefore
assumed to be wrong. And so obviously did not see it clearly as they did although I did learn from it


Were you the minority, or were you the only one? I demand clarity.
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Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#265  Postby mindhack » Oct 05, 2015 6:56 pm

Peter Brown wrote:

For everyone else seek your Islam updates elsewhere

The world could do with a few islam updates. Where should we turn to now?
(Ignorance --> Mystery) < (Knowledge --> Awe)
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Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#266  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 05, 2015 7:04 pm

mindhack wrote:
Peter Brown wrote:

For everyone else seek your Islam updates elsewhere

The world could do with a few islam updates. Where should we turn to now?



I believe that a method approximately equal in terms of accuracy to Peter and co's means of divination would be the ritual sacrifice of a goat - a white one mind you - and the detailed inspection of its digestive tract.
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Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#267  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 05, 2015 7:18 pm

Peter Brown wrote:Absolute proof the Mods here are so fucking bias towards the regressive forum members that I can quote a Thomas (who I call Thomas because every fucking regressive here can call me Peter and get away with it) in his crap and they will permanently ban me. And yes they did PERMANENTLY for a few hours become it was changed to a suspension.

For everyone else seek your Islam updates elsewhere



'Regressive' is the latest in the bucket list of words Peter uses to evade moderator attention.

Of course, it's amusingly ironic considering that his position wants the West to reject any and all Muslims via some form of genetic fallacy associating all 1.5 billion of them with the violence of a few, and to effect on any native Westerner who disagrees various forms of violence. This, of course, would be considered regressive in any one else's dictionary. Regression to the medieval period.
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Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#268  Postby mindhack » Oct 05, 2015 7:21 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
mindhack wrote:
Peter Brown wrote:

For everyone else seek your Islam updates elsewhere

The world could do with a few islam updates. Where should we turn to now?



I believe that a method approximately equal in terms of accuracy to Peter and co's means of divination would be the ritual sacrifice of a goat - a white one mind you - and the detailed inspection of its digestive tract.

It doesn't matter. The world has a mind of its own. :ghost:
(Ignorance --> Mystery) < (Knowledge --> Awe)
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Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#269  Postby Sendraks » Oct 05, 2015 9:33 pm

Peter Brown wrote:Absolute proof the Mods here are so fucking bias towards the regressive forum members that I can quote a Thomas (who I call Thomas because every fucking regressive here can call me Peter and get away with it) in his crap and they will permanently ban me. And yes they did PERMANENTLY for a few hours become it was changed to a suspension.

For everyone else seek your Islam updates elsewhere



Wah wah wah - everyone else is at fault but me.
Crikey Peter, I've lost track of the amount of patience others have shown you in trying to get you to appreciate where you have been at fault in your posting. But you won't listen.

Stop playing the victim and use your month to seriously think about your posting style and try to learn where you have gone wrong.
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Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#270  Postby surreptitious57 » Oct 06, 2015 1:53 am

quas wrote:
Were you the minority or were you the only one

I was the only one expressing it as an absolute
But even so I still learned an important lesson
I am now more an observer than a participant
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Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#271  Postby quas » Oct 06, 2015 10:42 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
The commandment: thou shalt not murder, for example.
Again, your personal incredulity and ignorance doesn't refute the fact that they do this because of religious motivations.
They didn't call themselves the Army of God for nothing.


There is no doctrine that compels them to murder murderers. They seem to have taken the initiative to do what they felt needed to be done, outside of religious ideology. Look at it this way, a secular person can be as equally as against abortion as they are. It doesn't take religious reasoning to see the logical link between abortion and baby murder. Thus, the anti-abortion secular person can be as equally compelled to attack abortion clinics. I also don't see what their name has anything to do with religion. They could have called themselves as Army of Anti Baby Murderers. Same effect.

In order to decide whether certain religious ideologies are evil/violent, we only need to perform the BUT FOR test. Would someone have committed the same atrocity if not for / but for his religious belef?
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Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#272  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 06, 2015 11:41 am

It doesn't take religious reasoning to see the logical link between abortion and baby murder.


Baby murder? I thought you were talking about abortion.

There's that interesting usage of the word 'logic' again.


Thus, the anti-abortion secular person can be as equally compelled to attack abortion clinics


Really? When did this happen?
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Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#273  Postby quas » Oct 06, 2015 11:49 am

Spearthrower wrote:
It doesn't take religious reasoning to see the logical link between abortion and baby murder.


Baby murder? I thought you were talking about abortion.

There's that interesting usage of the word 'logic' again.


If a woman gives birth to a 9 months old fetus, and you kill the baby as soon as it is born, that is murder.
If a woman gives birth prematurely to a 7 months old fetus, and you kill that baby, is that murder?
Current medical technology made it possible for a fetus of only 4-5 months old to survive premature birth, so if you kill them, is that murder?
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Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#274  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Oct 06, 2015 12:02 pm

If it's born.

Yes, killing a viable fetus born two months early is murder. It's born. It has rights.

Euthanising a fetus because a physician and patient have decided it's in the patient's best interests and then extracting it is not murder. It was never born and given any rights. What to do with it was entirely in the hands of the person it was inhabiting.

Delivering a non-viable fetus and having it die very shortly thereafter is not murder. It was non-viable and therefore providing it with any care would be futile.

You can actively kill a fetus in utero. You can't a non-viable or viable baby. You can withold futile care without it constituting murder.

I see massive differences between killing something living off another human being who doesn't want it there and killing something or allowing something to die that was inhabiting it's own body.
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Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#275  Postby quas » Oct 06, 2015 12:31 pm

Rachel Bronwyn wrote:It's born. It has rights.

I feel the logic is tenous there. What do we mean by "born"? Mere exposure to earth's atmosphere?

Delivering a non-viable fetus and having it die very shortly thereafter is not murder. It was non-viable and therefore providing it with any care would be futile.

Okay, I can agree to that, as long as we can know that the fetus would definitely be non-viable. But what if there's degrees of uncertainty. A fetus predicted to be non-viable turns out to be a healthy baby.

You can actively kill a fetus in utero. You can't a non-viable or viable baby.

So the distinction between fetus and baby is that a baby is born and fetus not yet born. But what if the fetus is born accidentally? For example, in the case of water breaking due to the woman having an accidental fall. I mean, by sheer accident, a fetus suddenly becomes "born" and turns into a baby. I think this demonstrates a very tenous link between born and not yet born.

You can withold futile care without it constituting murder.

Okay, so long as you can be assured that care would be futile in the first place. That's getting somewhat tricky with advances in medical technology, making probability of survival hard to guess.

I see massive differences between killing something living off another human being who doesn't want it there and killing something or allowing something to die that was inhabiting it's own body.

I feel that this is also tenous somehow, as there are circumstances where the differences blur, becoming hard to define.
Last edited by quas on Oct 06, 2015 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#276  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Oct 06, 2015 12:33 pm

quas wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
The commandment: thou shalt not murder, for example.
Again, your personal incredulity and ignorance doesn't refute the fact that they do this because of religious motivations.
They didn't call themselves the Army of God for nothing.


There is no doctrine that compels them to murder murderers.

Leviticus 24:17
Thank you for demonstrating, once again, you're just pulling stuff from your posterior.


They seem to have taken the initiative to do what they felt needed to be done, outside of religious ideology.

Except they specifically cite their religios texts as justification, but do continue to make shit up if you must.
And no your dishonest straw-men dont fly. The question is whether Christian texts promote violent thoughts and actions and they demonstrably do.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#277  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 06, 2015 12:45 pm

quas wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
It doesn't take religious reasoning to see the logical link between abortion and baby murder.


Baby murder? I thought you were talking about abortion.

There's that interesting usage of the word 'logic' again.


If a woman gives birth to a 9 months old fetus, and you kill the baby as soon as it is born, that is murder.

If a woman gives birth prematurely to a 7 months old fetus, and you kill that baby, is that murder?

Current medical technology made it possible for a fetus of only 4-5 months old to survive premature birth, so if you kill them, is that murder?


All fascinating questions, but ones which have been discussed at length in every society where abortion is legal. Experts on all elements of pregnancy, biology, and ethics have been consulted, their papers have been published, and laws correspondingly made.

So why do you need to consult me on this when there was allegedly logic operating here?

We already have clear definitions as to when a foetus can be considered to have human rights. Do you disagree with those definitions? If so, perhaps you could try actually staking a claim rather than sniping around the edges emulating that you're holding a position but which never materializes.

For example: you claim that a mother murdering a new born baby is murder - that would seem pretty definitive - but then you wave at an aborted foetus as if this also represents 'murder': however, this is clearly not even analogous. A new mother who has just had a baby cannot go to the hospital and have her new born baby [i]aborted[/i]. If the 2 cases are so similar as to represent a "logical link", how can this be so?

The actual fact is that the medical abortion of a baby is never considered 'murder' if approved of by both the state and the parents, thus this 'logic', which conveniently you don't need to own thanks to the way you framed it, is shown to be anything but.
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Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#278  Postby quas » Oct 06, 2015 12:47 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
quas wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
The commandment: thou shalt not murder, for example.
Again, your personal incredulity and ignorance doesn't refute the fact that they do this because of religious motivations.
They didn't call themselves the Army of God for nothing.


There is no doctrine that compels them to murder murderers.

Leviticus 24:17
Thank you for demonstrating, once again, you're just pulling stuff from your posterior.

How many christians today obey leviticus and/or deuteronomy to stone their disobedient child? I think you can probably find more Christians who don't eat pork or shellfish due to their religious beliefs.

Except they specifically cite their religios texts as justification, but do continue to make shit up if you must.

Army of God do that?

And no your dishonest straw-men dont fly. The question is whether Christian texts promote violent thoughts and actions and they demonstrably do.

I think we are in engaged in a very perverse game here. You are trying to exonerate Islam, by incriminating Christians to be as -or actually, MORE- violent than Muslims through trumped-up charges that would have your blood boiling if these very charges were leveled against Muslims. And when you couldn't find enough Christians to incriminate, you started incriminating non-Christians. And I am just applauding, encouraging you to go further and further. I don't know to feel more ashamed for you or myself.
Last edited by quas on Oct 06, 2015 12:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#279  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 06, 2015 12:50 pm

quas wrote:
I feel the logic is tenous there.



There's that word again.
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Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#280  Postby quas » Oct 06, 2015 12:54 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
quas wrote:
I feel the logic is tenous there.



There's that word again.


What should I have said? Ethereal?
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