Understanding the Violence in Islam

no true Scotsmen

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the mosques...

Moderators: Blip, DarthHelmet86

Understanding the Violence in Islam

#1  Postby Peter Brown » Sep 20, 2015 10:29 am

Nabeel Qureshi: Understanding the Violence in Islam



full of citations for those that need them.
User avatar
Peter Brown
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 4288

Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#2  Postby Oeditor » Sep 20, 2015 12:01 pm

Another blank post - is it me?
The very reason food is sealed is to keep information out. - Gary Ablett Snr.
Oeditor
 
Posts: 4581
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#3  Postby NineBerry » Sep 20, 2015 12:04 pm

It another one hour youtube video by the same fundamentalist evangelican Christian given at the same fundamentalist evangelical "university". I suppose the two videos are actually from the same event because the guy is wearing the same clothes.
User avatar
NineBerry
RS Donator
 
Posts: 5810
Age: 41
Male

Country: nSk
Print view this post

Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#4  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Sep 20, 2015 12:37 pm

Peter Brown, while you're at it, how about providing the citations people have actually requested, in the two threads about Syrian refugees?
And yes, I'll respond to the OP, when I've had time to scan the video.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 30219
Age: 30
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#5  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Sep 20, 2015 1:07 pm

Well, to start with, this video is from a private Evangelical university, which doesn't bode well.
Especially not with the comment section being disabled.

Attributing terror attacks on Islam can be equally applied to terrorist attacks perpetrated in the name of Christianity.
And he commits the No True Scotsman fallacy, almost right of the bat:
"That's not how I define Islam, I identify at as how Muhammed taught it as he left Arabia."
This argument is just as disingenuous as people wishing to criticise Christianity based on how it was during the Roman or Medieval eras. He also fails to provide a rational argument for his own definition, nor does he provide a sound rebuttal to the commonly and scientifically accepted definition.

His story about how Islam went from non-violent to defensive to violent, is again equally applicable to history of Christianity, both early and in general.
His argument that Islam has repeatedly resorted to violence, is irrelevant to the situation today, otherwise one should also condemn Christianity as it has also, whenever it had the possibility to do so, resorted to violence.

At this point I see little point in watching the entire video since he's failed to present a single argument that isn't equally applicable to his own religion. More-over his argumentation so far is based on appeals to authority fallacies and historical and/or limited anecdotes.

Yes, there are violent verses in the Koran, as there are in the bible and Torah.
Yes, there are violent Muslims, like there are violent Christians and Jews.

If he has a single sound argument, let alone evidence that Islam is a monolithic entity and inherently violent, he should have started with that. If you think he has such an argument, present it here or give the time stamp in the video where he presents it.
I've no interest in listening to Christian polemics.
Last edited by Thomas Eshuis on Sep 20, 2015 2:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 30219
Age: 30
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#6  Postby Nicko » Sep 20, 2015 2:00 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:WAnd he commits the No True Scotsman fallacy, almost right of the bat:
"That's not how I define Islam, I identify at as how Muhammed taught it as he left Arabia."


Easy to see why the video appeals to Peter, as it's identical to his own approach.
"Democracy is asset insurance for the rich. Stop skimping on the payments."

-- Mark Blyth
User avatar
Nicko
 
Name: Nick Williams
Posts: 8628
Age: 43
Male

Country: Australia
Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#7  Postby Peter Brown » Sep 20, 2015 2:53 pm

As usual, nothing more than false equivalences to propagate your personal belief all religions are the same and everyone sings from the same pages. The don't. Some have reinvented a totally different religion but call it and themselves by the same name. His lecture clearly shows the violence woven into the Qur'an which matches the historical data that Arabs bonded together and by the sword conquered an formed significant empire from the lands formerly controlled by the Byzantine and Syrians. He explains how new thoughts entered the religion and made the constant expansion slow then not completely stop internally, because in 1400 year the Jihad never completely stopped throughout the world. Then now, with the original text online and easy to read, young Muslims who believe no longer need the Imam to tell them what the Arabic words say. And we see Islamism, a return to the original war practices of Muhammad, return.

It would be like Christians having a revelation that Jesus actually said give your wealth to the poor and follow me, and actually doing so, rather than what the Pope said last Sunday about giving 10% of your income to the pastor via paypal each month.

I'm not bothered he is an ex Muslim turned Christian when he is 100% correct on the Islamic tradition.

He is telling his audience what the Muslims believe, which is quite important for evangelical Christians if they intend to use the logical flaws in the belief system against Muslims during evangelical talk.

You are taking the pre position of a general totally refusing to listen to the intelligence spy network at his disposal because it uses the enemies data to expose weaknesses before the general engages the troops into battle by this he is just a polemic Christian I won't listen remark. It is why you will always remain uninformed and ignorant.
Last edited by Peter Brown on Sep 20, 2015 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Peter Brown
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 4288

Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#8  Postby Pebble » Sep 20, 2015 3:11 pm

Peter Brown wrote:As usual, nothing more than false equivalences to propagate your personal belief all religions are the same and everyone sings from the same pages. The don't. Some have reinvented a totally different religion but call it and themselves by the same name.

I'm not bothered he is an ex Muslim turned Christian when he is 100% correct on the Islamic tradition.

He is telling his audience what the Muslims believe, which is quite important for evangelical Christians if they intend to use the logical flaws in the belief system against Muslims during evangelical talk.

You are taking the pre position of a general totally refusing to listen to the intelligence spy network at his disposal because it uses the enemies data to expose weaknesses before the general engages the troops into battle by this he is just a polemic Christian I won't listen remark. It is why you will always remain uninformed and ignorant.


Are we reading the same thread? All I see is a statement that the video you linked provides no evidence that is not equally applicable to christianity. If you disagree - where is your evidence?
Your claims about spy networks is quite odd. Are we at war with islam? Do we need to use unverifiable data to attempt to destroy it? If what is claimed to be true of islam is equally true of christianity, then resulting differences in behavior are not explained by those claims!
Pebble
 
Posts: 2812

Country: UK
Ireland (ie)
Print view this post

Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#9  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Sep 20, 2015 3:20 pm

Peter Brown wrote:As usual, nothing more than false equivalences to propagate your personal belief all religions are the same and everyone sings from the same pages. The don't. Some have reinvented a totally different religion but call it and themselves by the same name.

As usual nothing but blind and desperate dismissal.
Christianity also started out as a small group of people meeting in peace, then when they got challenged and more numerous they started to lash out at those who attacked them. Finally when they got powerful enough to dominate the Roman empire and the medieval kingdoms that followed, they became the persecutors.
The OT is filled with tales of the Jews exterminating other tribes, under the command of their vengeful and petty god.
Even the NT preaches that Jesus came to cause division, not peace, but the sword.
The Army of God is a Christian terrorist organisation, that is no more representative of Christianity as a whole than Al Quada, ISIS or the Taliban are for Islam.

Peter Brown wrote:I'm not bothered he is an ex Muslim turned Christian when he is 100% correct on the Islamic tradition.

You really struggle with adressing what people actually post, don't you?
I said nothing about him being an ex-muslim.
I said he's a hypocrite because all the arguments and accusations he employs against Islam apply equally, if not more to Christianity, the religion he believes in.
That's not saying Christianity and Islam are exactly the same, just that they both contain violent teachings and both historical and present examples of violent acts/people.

Peter Brown wrote:He is telling his audience what the Muslims believe, which is quite important for evangelical Christians if they intend to use the logical flaws in the belief system against Muslims during evangelical talk.

False, he's setting up a No True Scotsman straw-man to discredit Islam, but doing so by employing arguments and accusations that are not unique to Islam, nor shared by all Muslims. More-over they also apply to his own religion.

Peter Brown wrote:You are taking the pre position of a general totally refusing to listen to the intelligence spy network at his disposal because it uses the enemies data to expose weaknesses before the general engages the troops into battle by this he is just a polemic Christian I won't listen remark. It is why you will always remain uninformed and ignorant.

You can stuff your incessant and dishonest fabricating of my motivations and positions Peter Brown, I've expressed no pre-disposition whatsoever.
I've analysed the first 20 minutes of the video and on that basis, as well as the background of the speaker and the sponsoring university, explained why the video isn't reliable and employs fallacious and hypocritical argumentations.

You've failed completely to adress even a single point I raised. All you've done, once again, is make up your interlocutors motivation, so you can attack them rather than the point they're making.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 30219
Age: 30
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#10  Postby Peter Brown » Sep 20, 2015 3:35 pm

Have you watch the video Pebble, if so, show me in the new testament or in Christian complementaries Jesus telling you to kill the Jews and polytheists. I can't argue something Jesus never said.

The spy analogy is just that. an analogy.
I could say as it is a popular example G W Bush invaded Iraq based of false data he wanted to believe, not because the data of WMDs he had was true, it was very flawed as we now know. But because he was desperate to believe it was true so he could invade so Bush ignore all evidence that refuted the existence of WMDs.

People who claim Islam wasn't based to its core in blood and violence, are in this instance, behaving like G W Bush.
People who acknowledge the core values of Muhammad and the never ending Jihad he wanted before his death can come to an understanding why Muslims can end up committing terrorist acts, carry out the beheading thousands of prisoners and are a real threat to the whole world. They believe in Allah and want to be like Muhammad, and that is as simple as it gets.

The lecture tells you what the Qur'an and Hadiths say about Muhammad.

I couldn't figure out why for instance ISIL were burning people alive until stopspamming quoted the Hadith on the J&T show. I think it was this one, it may have been another?

'Abd-Allah Ibn 'Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) narrates that, 'Whoever wears clothing to be known (to be recognised), on the day of resurrection Allah (The Exalted) will make them wear the clothing of disrespect and then set on fire.'


Then it all made sense, they (ISIS) were just following religious instructions as best they could.
User avatar
Peter Brown
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 4288

Print view this post

Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#11  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Sep 20, 2015 3:55 pm

Peter Brown wrote:Have you watch the video Pebble, if so, show me in the new testament or in Christian complementaries Jesus telling you to kill the Jews and polytheists. I can't argue something Jesus never said.

You've already been educated on the violent texts in the bible in other threads Peter Brown.

The spy analogy is just that. an analogy.

A ludicrous analogy.


People who claim Islam wasn't based to its core in blood and violence, are in this instance, behaving like G W Bush.

As are people who pretend Islam is one monolithic entity.


People who acknowledge the core values of Muhammad and the never ending Jihad he wanted before his death can come to an understanding why Muslims can end up committing terrorist acts, carry out the beheading thousands of prisoners and are a real threat to the whole world. They believe in Allah and want to be like Muhammad, and that is as simple as it gets.

Yep and Christians are all mysoginists who want to stone disobedient children, gay people and those who work on the sabbath.
Simple as it gets. :crazy:


The lecture tells you what the Qur'an and Hadiths say about Muhammad.

No it tells you how the speaker interpets them.

Peter Brown wrote:
I couldn't figure out why for instance ISIL were burning people alive until stopspamming quoted the Hadith on the J&T show. I think it was this one, it may have been another?

I couldnt figure out why Anders Breivik, or the Army of God murdered all those people. Until I read that Jesus came to bring the sword, not peace and how anyone who isnt with him, is against him.

'Abd-Allah Ibn 'Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) narrates that, 'Whoever wears clothing to be known (to be recognised), on the day of resurrection Allah (The Exalted) will make them wear the clothing of disrespect and then set on fire.'


Then it all made sense, they (ISIS) were just following religious instructions as best they could.
[/quote]
Yep, just like Breivik, the Army of God, the WBC and the people who bomb abortion clinics.
Last edited by Thomas Eshuis on Sep 20, 2015 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 30219
Age: 30
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#12  Postby Pebble » Sep 20, 2015 4:20 pm

Peter Brown wrote: show me in the new testament or in Christian complementaries Jesus telling you to kill the Jews and polytheists. I can't argue something Jesus never said.


If as suggested below Jesus asserted that all written in the old testament is true - then he assents to all written within it!

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” — Matthew 5:18-19

“It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17)

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)

“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law” (John7:19)
Pebble
 
Posts: 2812

Country: UK
Ireland (ie)
Print view this post

Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#13  Postby NineBerry » Sep 20, 2015 4:21 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
The Army of God is a Christian terrorist organisation, that is no more representative of Christianity as a whole than Al Quada, ISIS or the Taliban are for Islam.


No, I don't think so. I think the point is that for a religion to become a world religion it must be flexible enough to have lots of different interpretations so it can survive and prosper in many different environments.
User avatar
NineBerry
RS Donator
 
Posts: 5810
Age: 41
Male

Country: nSk
Print view this post

Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#14  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Sep 20, 2015 4:25 pm

NineBerry wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
The Army of God is a Christian terrorist organisation, that is no more representative of Christianity as a whole than Al Quada, ISIS or the Taliban are for Islam.


No, I don't think so. I think the point is that for a religion to become a world religion it must be flexible enough to have lots of different interpretations so it can survive and prosper in many different environments.

You think the Army of God is representative of Christianity? :scratch:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 30219
Age: 30
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#15  Postby NineBerry » Sep 20, 2015 4:32 pm

I think, no single thing can be representative of such complex beasts as Christianity or Islam because they are such diverse and complex phenomenon.
User avatar
NineBerry
RS Donator
 
Posts: 5810
Age: 41
Male

Country: nSk
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#16  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Sep 20, 2015 4:40 pm

NineBerry wrote:I think, no single thing can be representative of such complex beasts as Christianity or Islam because they are such diverse and complex phenomenon.

The initial phrasing makes it seem like you're disagreeing with me.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 30219
Age: 30
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#17  Postby NineBerry » Sep 20, 2015 4:45 pm

Sorry, I missed the "no" in your sentence.
User avatar
NineBerry
RS Donator
 
Posts: 5810
Age: 41
Male

Country: nSk
Print view this post

Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#18  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Sep 20, 2015 4:50 pm

NineBerry wrote:Sorry, I missed the "no" in your sentence.

Np, glad we cleared that up. :thumbup:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 30219
Age: 30
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#19  Postby Peter Brown » Sep 20, 2015 5:01 pm

Pebble wrote:
Peter Brown wrote: show me in the new testament or in Christian complementaries Jesus telling you to kill the Jews and polytheists. I can't argue something Jesus never said.


If as suggested below Jesus asserted that all written in the old testament is true - then he assents to all written within it!

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” — Matthew 5:18-19

“It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17)

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)

“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law” (John7:19)


and does any of that say kill all the unbelievers?

There is no evidence Moses existed, no evidence of the exodus, and zero evidence of the genocide accounted in the Torah.
There is no evidence of Jesus killing anyone, just hearsay in the apocrypha, no evidence at all of the disciples waging a war, leading battle armies.

There is are loads of accounts of Muhammad and companions Caliphs waging savage wars, fading over quite a few hundred years for various cause and effect reasons. All of which are in the Islamic narrative, unlike what the Pope did. If Christianity was comparable to Islam, the Crusades would still be going on as to my knowledge the Pope has never called them off. This might be why some Muslims still refer to them today because their Jihad can't be stopped ever.

There is no comparison between Islam's concept of Jihad in the old or new testaments. To suggest otherwise is to make false excellences.
Kill disobedient children, is not the same as kill all children with pubic hair who's fathers were disobedient or fathers knew someone or was in the same tribe as, which Muhammad did so I include as an example of killing children.
Buy a sword is not the same as cut off their heads.
The list goes on.

If you watch the videos you even get to hear why the Muslims say the Old and New Testament have been corrupted. Because what Muhammad claims as Allah's laws for men simply do not match what the Old and New Testaments says. It is the only way Muslims who started to notice this glaring flaw to get around it. To say Muhammad was right, the Qur'an is flawless and the Jews and Christians don't because their books lie now. That simple thing should inform you that the religions are very different if the Muslims have to claim the Old and New Testaments are corrupted because the Qur'an doesn't state the same things.
Last edited by Peter Brown on Sep 20, 2015 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Peter Brown
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 4288

Print view this post

Re: Understanding the Violence in Islam

#20  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Sep 20, 2015 5:10 pm

Peter Brown wrote:
Pebble wrote:
Peter Brown wrote: show me in the new testament or in Christian complementaries Jesus telling you to kill the Jews and polytheists. I can't argue something Jesus never said.


If as suggested below Jesus asserted that all written in the old testament is true - then he assents to all written within it!

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” — Matthew 5:18-19

“It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17)

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)

“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law” (John7:19)


and does any of that say kill all the unbelievers?

It says to kill disobedient children, gay people and those who work on the sabbath.

There is no evidence Moses existed, no evidence of the exodus, and zero evidence of the genocide accounted in the Torah.

:picard:

There is no evidence of Jesus killing anyone, just hearsay in the apocrypha, no evidence at all of the disciples waging a war, leading battle armies.

There are mutliple verses in the bible promoting the killing of various groups of people, which is all that matters.

There is are loads of accounts of Muhammad and companions Caliphs waging savage wars, fading over quite a few hundred years for various cause and effect reasons. All of which are in the Islamic narrative, unlike what the Pope did. If Christianity was comparable to Islam, the Crusades would still be going on as to my knowledge the Pope has never called them off. This might be why some Muslims still refer to them today because their Jihad can't be stopped ever.

:roll:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 30219
Age: 30
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Next

Return to Islam

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest