What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

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Re: What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

#21  Postby Sendraks » Mar 31, 2016 12:14 pm

Are we discussing the superiorities of Islam over Christianity in the right here and right now? Or was the question rather more broad, to encompass the span of history that leads us to the point were are at now.

I'd interpreted it as the latter given the content of the OP covers more than just the here and now.

If the discussion is about what the superiorities of Islam over Christianity are right now, I'd have to say none.
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Re: What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

#22  Postby Briton » Mar 31, 2016 12:17 pm

aliihsanasl wrote:
Briton wrote:It is superior to Christianity in protecting it's self from the Enlightenment.


And at the same time although there are voluntary and officially assigned missionaries of Christianity Islam spreading more rapidly somehow.


Says who? We don't know how many people who are classed as Muslims are actually atheist; unlike converts, they're not going to be shouting about it. I suspect, just like all the other major religions, belief in that nonsense is shrinking.
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Re: What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

#23  Postby Briton » Mar 31, 2016 12:21 pm

Sendraks wrote:Are we discussing the superiorities of Islam over Christianity in the right here and right now? Or was the question rather more broad, to encompass the span of history that leads us to the point were are at now.

I'd interpreted it as the latter given the content of the OP covers more than just the here and now.

If the discussion is about what the superiorities of Islam over Christianity are right now, I'd have to say none.


Depends on what your definition of superior is as well. Does it mean superior from the point of view of it's influence/control over it's victims; or whether the victims are better off under Islam or Christianity. If it's the former, then Islam is superior.
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Re: What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

#24  Postby Sendraks » Mar 31, 2016 12:31 pm

Briton wrote:Depends on what your definition of superior is as well. Does it mean superior from the point of view of it's influence/control over it's victims; or whether the victims are better off under Islam or Christianity. If it's the former, then Islam is superior.


Well for clarity I'm speaking wholly from my own perspective which is to say that I think both are equally stinky bags of shite. Obviously the Ayatollah or an Imam is going to have a very different take on this.

But, you're right that its a question of superiority to a given end. If your end is control, then Islam would definitely be my top pick.
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Re: What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

#25  Postby Briton » Mar 31, 2016 12:40 pm

Sendraks wrote:
Briton wrote:Depends on what your definition of superior is as well. Does it mean superior from the point of view of it's influence/control over it's victims; or whether the victims are better off under Islam or Christianity. If it's the former, then Islam is superior.


Well for clarity I'm speaking wholly from my own perspective which is to say that I think both are equally stinky bags of shite. Obviously the Ayatollah or an Imam is going to have a very different take on this.

But, you're right that its a question of superiority to a given end. If your end is control, then Islam would definitely be my top pick.


I also agree that they are, historically, as bad as each other. In different circumstances, that nice CoE vicar would burning me at the stake.
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Re: What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

#26  Postby tuco » Mar 31, 2016 1:05 pm

How to understand even basics such as lets say centralized Christianity (Vatican/Pope) with lets say interpretative Islam (local Imams), advantage or not?

Also mentioned "absolute peace" or lets say "forgiveness" in Christianity versus perhaps lets say militant tone of Islam?

Our national independence's first bullet fired by an imam in Kahramanmaras when the community came to mosque for Friday prayer which is crucial for Muslims.


Advantage or not?

Maybe then perceived superiorities or situational. That is the thing. In open society nobody is in possession of absolute truth. If someone was, that someone could hold power and rule, like God, Christian or Muslim or any other.

There is new religion, open society which is superior because the only dogma it holds is that its open thus dynamic, without absolute truths.

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Re: What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

#27  Postby aliihsanasl » Mar 31, 2016 1:09 pm

Sendraks wrote:Are we discussing the superiorities of Islam over Christianity in the right here and right now? Or was the question rather more broad, to encompass the span of history that leads us to the point were are at now.

I'd interpreted it as the latter given the content of the OP covers more than just the here and now.

If the discussion is about what the superiorities of Islam over Christianity are right now, I'd have to say none.


Islam provided a better environment to live for other beliefs for a millennium and in the last 50 years if we take into consideration the suicide attacks in Israel (their land is occupied but no matter what the excuse I won't accept terrorism) or 9/11 attacks which drops it to 15 years we have to consider Islam according to this one millennium, am I wrong ?

Can you say Christian Europe provided a safe living land for others in the past ? Not just in Nazi period prior to that Jews burned in city centres, forced to dress certain type to mark them, banned to go out after certain hours for centuries. Armenians of Anatolia fight on the Ottomans side against Byzantine. Please don't start with the so called Armenian genocide which constitute the last 8 years of a 630 years lasted empire which generally accepted a period of peace with a period everyone killing each other to build their own nation. Even Turks backstabbed their own empire in order to build a real Turkish nation state.

Returning to your question are we discussing it in a narrow sense today here and now in my opinion we would have a wrong view of Islam. As some Islamists say their religion is hijacked by some radicals, Islam isn't that innocent but keep in mind there is only 1 or 2 times which death sentence applied for adultery for maybe 700 years.
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Re: What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

#28  Postby Sendraks » Mar 31, 2016 1:10 pm

tuco wrote:How to understand even basics such as lets say centralized Christianity (Vatican/Pope) with lets say interpretative Islam (local Imams), advantage or not?


What do you think?

mealy mouthedAlso mentioned "absolute peace" or lets say "forgiveness" in Christianity versus perhaps lets say militant tone of Islam?

Our national independence's first bullet fired by an imam in Kahramanmaras when the community came to mosque for Friday prayer which is crucial for Muslims.


Advantage or not?[/quote]

What do you think? I mean, clearly you must have some thoughts on this, otherwise you wouldn't have raised these issues. So how about sharing your thoughts, instead of just firing off questions at random. Then we can discuss what you think.

tuco wrote:There is new religion, open society which is superior because the only dogma it holds is that its open thus dynamic, without absolute truths.


What you are described is not a "new religion". You're also confused about the use of the word "dogma."
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Re: What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

#29  Postby Sendraks » Mar 31, 2016 1:15 pm

aliihsanasl wrote:Islam provided a better environment to live for other beliefs for a millennium and in the last 50 years if we take into consideration the suicide attacks in Israel (their land is occupied but no matter what the excuse I won't accept terrorism) or 9/11 attacks which drops it to 15 years we have to consider Islam according to this one millennium, am I wrong ?


Muslims of different Islamic sects have been happily murdering each other since around 800AD. So I'm not sure this tolerance of "other beliefs" washes, in so far that the tolerance of "other beliefs" extended to those sufficiently different from their own as to not be contestable as the "right version of the belief."

aliihsanasl wrote:Can you say Christian Europe provided a safe living land for others in the past ?

You can certainly look back at history and see that Christian Europe has had periods of persecution of differing beliefs, including differing Christian beliefs, but this is a punctuated equilibrium.

aliihsanasl wrote:Islam isn't that innocent but keep in mind there is only 1 or 2 times which death sentence applied for adultery for maybe 700 years.


Sadly, no.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoning#Usage_today

And lets be clear not putting people to death for adultery, when other punishments are meted out instead, is setting a very low bar indeed.
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Re: What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

#30  Postby Briton » Mar 31, 2016 1:18 pm

aliihsanasl wrote:
Returning to your question are we discussing it in a narrow sense today here and now in my opinion we would have a wrong view of Islam. As some Islamists say their religion is hijacked by some radicals, Islam isn't that innocent but keep in mind there is only 1 or 2 times which death sentence applied for adultery for maybe 700 years.


Ultimately it's like asking whether you'd prefer to contract syphilis or gonorrhea.
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Re: What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

#31  Postby aliihsanasl » Mar 31, 2016 1:28 pm

tuco wrote:How to understand even basics such as lets say centralized Christianity (Vatican/Pope) with lets say interpretative Islam (local Imams), advantage or not?

Also mentioned "absolute peace" or lets say "forgiveness" in Christianity versus perhaps lets say militant tone of Islam?

Our national independence's first bullet fired by an imam in Kahramanmaras when the community came to mosque for Friday prayer which is crucial for Muslims.


Advantage or not?

Maybe then perceived superiorities or situational. That is the thing. In open society nobody is in possession of absolute truth. If someone was, that someone could hold it and rule, like God, Christian or Muslim or any other.

There is new religion, open society which is superior because the only dogma it holds is that its open thus dynamic, without absolute truths.


Sorry tuco couldn't understand what you want to say but there are two things I want to point out. One is although it was nothing like the pope of christianity I mean had no spiritual power claim there was a leader of Islamic world. And there is a thesis that today's problems are a result of this power vacuum in the Islamic community. Keep in mind problems started just two decades after the abolishment of caliphate.

I'm not not trying to favour this or that religion over the laws of any modern law. But for centuries we lived under these centuries old customs and so they must have effects on our understanding of life. Just a few decades ago there were men with more than one wife in Turkey although it's banned with modern law they had married back in Ottoman period and you can't "unmarry" someone who doesn't want to divorce.
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Re: What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

#32  Postby aliihsanasl » Mar 31, 2016 1:42 pm

Sendraks wrote:
aliihsanasl wrote:Islam provided a better environment to live for other beliefs for a millennium and in the last 50 years if we take into consideration the suicide attacks in Israel (their land is occupied but no matter what the excuse I won't accept terrorism) or 9/11 attacks which drops it to 15 years we have to consider Islam according to this one millennium, am I wrong ?


Muslims of different Islamic sects have been happily murdering each other since around 800AD. So I'm not sure this tolerance of "other beliefs" washes, in so far that the tolerance of "other beliefs" extended to those sufficiently different from their own as to not be contestable as the "right version of the belief."

aliihsanasl wrote:Can you say Christian Europe provided a safe living land for others in the past ?

You can certainly look back at history and see that Christian Europe has had periods of persecution of differing beliefs, including differing Christian beliefs, but this is a punctuated equilibrium.

aliihsanasl wrote:Islam isn't that innocent but keep in mind there is only 1 or 2 times which death sentence applied for adultery for maybe 700 years.


Sadly, no.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoning#Usage_today

And lets be clear not putting people to death for adultery, when other punishments are meted out instead, is setting a very low bar indeed.


Do you understand that when I mention 700 years I'm mentioning half of the Islamic period and this is between 1280 to 1920 which Islam was represented under one flag with clear historical documents and most of the time lead by a caliph recognized by Muslims. Is it fair to leave that official period and take into consideration the last 50 years which there is violence and extremism in ever corner of Islamic regions ?

Keep in mind Ottomans applied this stoning to a Jewish woman because there is clear statement in Torah for adultery ! There isn't a single line about stoning in Koran.

Religions are always more brutal against their own sects than other beliefs. In the eye of 85 % of Islamic world I deserve to death sentence because I'm Shia I'm someone who returned from authentic Islam but you're Christian and you're life is under guarantee of Islamic state.
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Re: What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

#33  Postby tuco » Mar 31, 2016 1:43 pm

Why would I want to say what? We talk about superiority. I pointed two differences, which we can possibly agree on, and asked how to determine superiority?

Or I could Google Islam versus Christianity and go from there. But the differences I Googled I do not understand, like differences in God's role in salvation .. I dunno wtf that is.
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Re: What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

#34  Postby Sendraks » Mar 31, 2016 1:51 pm

aliihsanasl wrote:
Do you understand that when I mention 700 years I'm mentioning half of the Islamic period and this is between 1280 to 1920 which Islam was represented under one flag with clear historical documents and most of the time lead by a caliph recognized by Muslims. Is it fair to leave that official period and take into consideration the last 50 years which there is violence and extremism in ever corner of Islamic regions ?


So you want to define Islam solely by a period in which there was "peace" (which at best can be described as the dominance of one sect over the other and persecution thereof), and discount those eras when there was not? Which is basically little more than shifting the goalposts to define terms in which Islam looks best.

aliihsanasl wrote:Keep in mind Ottomans applied this stoning to a Jewish woman because there is clear statement in Torah for adultery ! There isn't a single line about stoning in Koran.


Islam isn't just the Koran. Islam is its followers. Fortunately for the most part the followers of Islam are peaceful people who do not go around stoning each other, blowing themselves up or participate in holy wars. Which are traits wholly consistent with the behaviour of the vast majority of human beings.

aliihsanasl wrote:Religions are always more brutal against their own sects than other beliefs.


Oh I don't think so. Christianity has a long and proud tradition of horrendous brutality to pretty much everyone.
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Re: What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

#35  Postby aliihsanasl » Mar 31, 2016 2:30 pm

Sendraks wrote:
aliihsanasl wrote:
Do you understand that when I mention 700 years I'm mentioning half of the Islamic period and this is between 1280 to 1920 which Islam was represented under one flag with clear historical documents and most of the time lead by a caliph recognized by Muslims. Is it fair to leave that official period and take into consideration the last 50 years which there is violence and extremism in ever corner of Islamic regions ?


So you want to define Islam solely by a period in which there was "peace" (which at best can be described as the dominance of one sect over the other and persecution thereof), and discount those eras when there was not? Which is basically little more than shifting the goalposts to define terms in which Islam looks best.

aliihsanasl wrote:Keep in mind Ottomans applied this stoning to a Jewish woman because there is clear statement in Torah for adultery ! There isn't a single line about stoning in Koran.


Islam isn't just the Koran. Islam is its followers. Fortunately for the most part the followers of Islam are peaceful people who do not go around stoning each other, blowing themselves up or participate in holy wars. Which are traits wholly consistent with the behaviour of the vast majority of human beings.

aliihsanasl wrote:Religions are always more brutal against their own sects than other beliefs.


Oh I don't think so. Christianity has a long and proud tradition of horrendous brutality to pretty much everyone.



"Koran is enough for Islam" is the main message of Koran which is accepted as the word of Allah by whole Islamic world. I know that in time lots of things added to it but lets take a look and be honest they are all the things which turn Islam into an extremist religion at this point anyone asks the same question; "are they injected into this religion in order to reach some political objectives or personal joy or they're part of the message of Koran ?" This discussion is today going on Islamic world and we can't find a solution here but as I said before every single dispute in Islamic world stoning of women, Mohammed's marriage with a child all are product of books written decades after Koran came into one book.

There is clearly dominance of one sect on another in Islam, Sunni population constitute %85 of Muslims. The reason why I prefer is already there there is 700 years on one side and its under an authority which represent Islam. What's Islam today ? Islamic state, Saudi Arabia or Turkey which Pakistan and Iran said " an Ataturk what our country needs nowadays" both country mentioned that in the last 4 weeks.

What you do is like evaluating someone when he has alzheimer and doing nasty things leaving all his youth and adult days. You don't compare someone according to his childhood when newly understanding the world or while lost the hegemonic rule in 3 different continent. I evaluate someone when he has gun and power in his hand. From 15th to 18th century Muslims could wipe out all the non-Muslim community under their rule and actually could name it as a revenge of Crusades. They clearly didn't do it for this or that purposes, they lived and protected their cultures.
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Re: What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

#36  Postby Sendraks » Mar 31, 2016 2:33 pm

Right so we should just focus on the good bits of Islam to see that it is good.

Right. Gotcha.
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Re: What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

#37  Postby laklak » Mar 31, 2016 2:33 pm

RealityRules wrote:Less drunks


Except when they make it to Bahrain they get legless in minutes. Practice makes perfect, mah Dqddy allus said.
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Re: What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

#38  Postby aliihsanasl » Mar 31, 2016 2:35 pm

Sendraks wrote:Right so we should just focus on the good bits of Islam to see that it is good.

Right. Gotcha.


Isn't that the aim of this thread ? You can find the bad bits of it on the other thread mate :)
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Re: What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

#39  Postby Sendraks » Mar 31, 2016 2:39 pm

aliihsanasl wrote:Isn't that the aim of this thread ?


Is it?
If so the thread should've been titled "What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity if we redefine Islam down to an increasingly narrow set of timeframes and criteria in which Islam looks good?"

Because, you know, you can do with the same with Christianity and achieve an equally worthless result.
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Re: What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

#40  Postby aliihsanasl » Mar 31, 2016 2:50 pm

Sendraks wrote:
aliihsanasl wrote:Isn't that the aim of this thread ?


Is it?
If so the thread should've been titled "What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity if we redefine Islam down to an increasingly narrow set of timeframes and criteria in which Islam looks good?"

Because, you know, you can do with the same with Christianity and achieve an equally worthless result.


700 > 50 Sendraks, Ottoman empire is a very institutional empire lasted longest in the history and they documented every tax, judicial and international agreement if I'm not going to take Ottoman empire which period am I going to use to understand Islam ?

I'm not narrowing Islam to a period I'm looking at history and see the largest portion of it under one regime which emerged as a threat to Christian world which serves the title of this thread. Positive sides of Islam over Christianity. Actually comparing these two religions from todays perspective is wrong because both aren't what they used to be genuine themselves any more Christianity experienced enlightenment and churches lost power, Islam lost its caliph and empire and lost power.
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