What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the mosques...

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Re: What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

#41  Postby Sendraks » Mar 31, 2016 3:04 pm

aliihsanasl wrote:

700 > 50 Sendraks, Ottoman empire is a very institutional empire lasted longest in the history and they documented every tax, judicial and international agreement if I'm not going to take Ottoman empire which period am I going to use to understand Islam ?

I'm not narrowing Islam to a period I'm looking at history and see the largest portion of it under one regime which emerged as a threat to Christian world which serves the title of this thread. Positive sides of Islam over Christianity. Actually comparing these two religions from todays perspective is wrong because both aren't what they used to be genuine themselves any more Christianity experienced enlightenment and churches lost power, Islam lost its caliph and empire and lost power.


But again you've no valid basis for comparison because the Christian world has never operated under a single regime in the way Islam has.

Now if you want to argue that this is one for the superiority for Islam, you'd have to demonstrate how this is superior and that what occurred was the result of Islam and not a result of other factors, such as say a particularly effective military bringing a whole load of disparate communities under a single yolk.
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Re: What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

#42  Postby Oeditor » Mar 31, 2016 3:44 pm

This seems to be largely a discussion of "which is superior, historical Muslim culture or ...some generalisation about Christianity". For a true comparison of the religions themselves, could it perhaps be better to discuss either the fundamentals of both or their current manifestations? One might even draw on the present to illuminate the fundamentals: ISIS claim to uphold the one true faith and American fundie Young Earth creationists are significant Christian throwbacks. Roman Catholicism doesn't seem to represent the original Christianity very well, since it led to a significant reformation to more fundamental values.
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Re: What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

#43  Postby aliihsanasl » Mar 31, 2016 4:55 pm

Sendraks wrote:
aliihsanasl wrote:

700 > 50 Sendraks, Ottoman empire is a very institutional empire lasted longest in the history and they documented every tax, judicial and international agreement if I'm not going to take Ottoman empire which period am I going to use to understand Islam ?

I'm not narrowing Islam to a period I'm looking at history and see the largest portion of it under one regime which emerged as a threat to Christian world which serves the title of this thread. Positive sides of Islam over Christianity. Actually comparing these two religions from todays perspective is wrong because both aren't what they used to be genuine themselves any more Christianity experienced enlightenment and churches lost power, Islam lost its caliph and empire and lost power.


But again you've no valid basis for comparison because the Christian world has never operated under a single regime in the way Islam has.

Now if you want to argue that this is one for the superiority for Islam, you'd have to demonstrate how this is superior and that what occurred was the result of Islam and not a result of other factors, such as say a particularly effective military bringing a whole load of disparate communities under a single yolk.


Is it in favour of your thesis to be under one regime or having lots of independent states. If there would be even one tolerant kingdom against minorities I would question my theory. But minorities faced the same brutality in every capital under Christian rule also I have to mention that the reason why I always Jews us because Muslims never allowed to be a community under Christian rule but on the other hand there was no need too because they had their own empire otherwise they would share the same fate as Jews.

Can you find any city which belong to Muslims in that list ?

https://www.darkmoon.me/2014/timeline-o ... secutions/

There is a term as far as I know introduced by western historians called Pax Ottomana, there is a wiki article about it but explained in much detail here.

If you take a look at it you'll see how Islam created a safe shelter for minorities just like Europe do today.

http://www.osmanli.org.tr/en/the_unknown_ottoman.php
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Re: What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

#44  Postby tuco » Mar 31, 2016 5:11 pm

It is really too bad there are no Islamic scholars here because what you say aliihsanasl about Islam in positive connotations is similar to what I hear from Arabic/Islamic scholars and historians.

Since there are none here, someone feel free to prove me wrong, I do not pity your effort but shake my head.
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Re: What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

#45  Postby Sendraks » Mar 31, 2016 5:56 pm

aliihsanasl wrote:[Is it in favour of your thesis to be under one regime or having lots of independent states.


You tell me. You're the one arguing that the caliphate was superior, explain why that in itself is a superiority.

aliihsanasl wrote:If there would be even one tolerant kingdom against minorities I would question my theory. But minorities faced the same brutality in every capital under Christian rule also I have to mention that the reason why I always Jews us because Muslims never allowed to be a community under Christian rule but on the other hand there was no need too because they had their own empire otherwise they would share the same fate as Jews.

Can you find any city which belong to Muslims in that list ?

https://www.darkmoon.me/2014/timeline-o ... secutions/


Can you show me where Jews were consistently persecuted in every Christian capital throughout history? Because what you're showing here is that, whilst the Christians did persecute Jews throughout history, it wasn't continuous everywhere and indeed there were lengthy periods of peace and non-persecution throughout Christian society.

Yes - jewish persecution was pretty much always happening "somehwere" in Christian lands but, it was manifestly not always happening "everywhere."

However - it is fair to say that the Jews fared better under Islam than they did under Christian rulers. They were persecuted "less" but they were not wholly free from persecution. And indeed, as we get nearer to the modern era, we see increasing persecution of jews emerging until we reach the present state of affairs.

I suppose you could say the "slightly less shitty" treatment of the Jews under Islam, makes it superior to the tolerance of Christians towards the Jews.
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Re: What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

#46  Postby aliihsanasl » Mar 31, 2016 6:39 pm

This isn't a boxing competition Sendraks when you burn a group of people in the city centre or torture them they don't wait for their turn, others leave right away. When I say always it doesnt mean non stop discrimination day after day, these are human not fish.

Why its that difficult to say " I was wrong ? " Ottomans because of their belief and also political circumstances treated
minorities much better than any society treated them on those days.

Much better than Britain threated Indians, much better than Americans treated native Americans or France, Belgium etc. threated their colonies in Africa.

If I'm wrong why there isn't uprising or war between Ottomans and minorities other than the battles between other Turkic states whole region is peaceful until the nationalism period ?
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Re: What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

#47  Postby Sendraks » Mar 31, 2016 8:20 pm

aliihsanasl wrote:This isn't a boxing competition Sendraks


No its not, so stop treating it like one. This is a discussion and one that need not be adversarial. So stop trying to swing a knockout blow my way, because I'm not actually in the fight.

aliihsanasl wrote: when you burn a group of people in the city centre or torture them they don't wait for their turn, others leave right away. When I say always it doesnt mean non stop discrimination day after day, these are human not fish.

Why are you talking about fish?

aliihsanasl wrote:Why its that difficult to say " I was wrong ? "

First I would need to be clear about that which I was wrong. I'm not aware that I have made a statement that you have demonstrated to be wrong.

aliihsanasl wrote:Ottomans because of their belief and also political circumstances treated minorities much better than any society treated them on those days.

The Ottomans treated the Jews better than the Christians did, but to say they did it "much better" is an exagerration. Also, you've not demonstrated that the Ottomans treated them better because of their belief in Islam, rather than because of numerous other factors influencing Ottoman society at that time.

And whatever those factors are, they clearly made Ottoman society a more egalitarian place than other predimoniantly Islamic societies today. And given the common demoninator between oppressive extremist Islamic regiemes today and the Ottoman empire is Islam, then the differences between two could well be explained by other factors yes?

aliihsanasl wrote:Much better than Britain threated Indians, much better than Americans treated native Americans or France, Belgium etc. threated their colonies in Africa.

And whilst all those were Christian nations, that doesn't mean that their behaviour was driven by Christianty.

This discussion isn't "What are the superiorities of the Ottoman empire over its contemporaries."

aliihsanasl wrote:If I'm wrong why there isn't uprising or war between Ottomans and minorities other than the battles between other Turkic states whole region is peaceful until the nationalism period ?


You're the one making the claim that it was "because Islam" therefore you're the one who is going to have evidence that as being the key factor, rather than anything else.

Its worth noting that Ghenghis Khan promoted religious tolerance, but he didn't do that because of a given religion.
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Re: What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

#48  Postby Oeditor » Apr 01, 2016 9:13 am

Still on about the Ottomans. Should we perhaps be comparing empires, not religions?
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Re: What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

#49  Postby Briton » Apr 01, 2016 11:04 am

They definitely had superior bed linen storage.
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Re: What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

#50  Postby aliihsanasl » Apr 01, 2016 11:20 am

Oeditor wrote:Still on about the Ottomans. Should we perhaps be comparing empires, not religions?


If I would want to understand Christianity I wouldn't observe today's USA or mediaeval Britain or France but institutionalised Catholic church of mediaeval times which is the Ottoman equivalent of it's day. It represents Christianity best because that was the hype of the power of Christianity.
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Re: What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

#51  Postby Sendraks » Apr 01, 2016 11:37 am

aliihsanasl wrote:
If I would want to understand Christianity I wouldn't observe today's USA or mediaeval Britain or France but institutionalised Catholic church of mediaeval times which is the Ottoman equivalent of it's day.


No. No it was not the equivalent of the Ottoman empire.
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Re: What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

#52  Postby aliihsanasl » Apr 01, 2016 12:02 pm

USA is today and also since it's establishment carried the flag of free speech and democracy, when you ask any of the presidents of USA they would point that root of their ideology is in democracy. So does it make sense to say "no it isn't democracy, it's because you're powerful, you have wealth, you have a good army that's why there is peace and harmony in USA now ?"

Just like that it doesn't make sense to say there is no connection between Islam and Ottomans' moderate attitude towards their minorities. Sultans are openly tolerant to other religions and that's an information from encyclopedia what else do you need to accept it ?

When I say they were tolerant, they treated much better you're saying you say it's exaggeration how are we going to measure that ? On the one side they're getting burned tortured another side in the wiki article say their property was under state's protection. So lets change the argument again and say it wasn't Islam it was Ottoman state's success, fine that goes on and on but I'm not in.



Under Ottoman rule, dhimmis (non-Muslim subjects) were allowed to "practice their religion, subject to certain conditions, and to enjoy a measure of communal autonomy" (see: Millet) and guaranteed their personal safety and security of property.[4] While recognizing the inferior status of dhimmis under Islamic rule, Bernard Lewis, Professor Emeritus of Near Eastern Studies at Princeton University, states that, in most respects, their position was "very much easier than that of non-Christians or even of heretical Christians in medieval (Catholic) Europe."[5] For example, dhimmis rarely faced martyrdom or exile, or forced compulsion to change their religion, and with certain exceptions, they were free in their choice of residence and profession.[6] But they could not have high up positions like the Muslims, and received smaller pay.
Negative attitudes towards dhimmis harbored by the Ottoman governors were partly due to the "normal" feelings of a dominant group towards subject groups, to the contempt Muslims had for those whom they perceived to have willfully chosen to refuse to accept the truth and convert to Islam, and to certain specific prejudices and humiliations. The negative attitudes, however, rarely had any ethnic or racial components.[7]
In the early years, the Ottoman Empire decreed that people of different millets should wear specific colors of, for instance, turbans and shoes — a policy that was not, however, always followed by Ottoman citizens.[8]



Edit : it's not just equivalent also rival of the Ottoman empire, Ottomans always saw Catholic church as the main boss Kingdoms add the puppets of it. Historians still argue that Fatih the conquerer poisoned by the order of the pope.
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Re: What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

#53  Postby Sendraks » Apr 01, 2016 12:24 pm

aliihsanasl wrote:Just like that it doesn't make sense to say there is no connection between Islam and Ottomans' moderate attitude towards their minorities. Sultans are openly tolerant to other religions and that's an information from encyclopedia what else do you need to accept it ?


I can accept that the Sultans were tolerant but, there Sultans =/= the religion. They just happened to be tolerant individuals. History is replete with tolerant and intolerant individuals.

What caused them to be tolerant? I don't know. I'm not persuaded it was Islam, given that the same belief system seems equally capable of producing horrendously intolerant individuals. Clearly on tolerance, Islam is not inherently that much cop.

The status of Jewry in the Ottoman Empire often hinged on the whims of the Sultan. So, for example, while Murad III ordered that the attitude of all non-Muslims should be one of "humility and abjection" and should not "live near Mosques or tall buildings" or own slaves, others were more tolerant.[2]


Christianity preaches "love they neighbour" and "thou shalt not kill" as fairly headline parts of its scripture, not to mention an adherence to the golden rule and "turning the other cheek". If people were following the scripture, you'd expect to see a similar bedrock of tolerance in Christianity. But we don't, almost as if there were other factors at play.

aliihsanasl wrote:When I say they were tolerant, they treated much better you're saying you say it's exaggeration how are we going to measure that ?

From my study of history, I'm not seeing anything that suggests the Islamic tolerance was "much better" than that of the Christians. It was "better" and that in itself is a hopefully woolly value.

Taken from the same Wikipedia page you quoted later and yet, for some reason, chose not to quote.

Ottoman religious tolerance was notable for being a bit better than that which existed elsewhere in other great past or contemporary empires, such as Spain or England


aliihsanasl wrote: So lets change the argument again and say it wasn't Islam it was Ottoman state's success, fine that goes on and on but I'm not in.


What you are arguing for and have been for most of this thread, I think of a misplaced sense of national loyalty, is for the superiority of the Ottoman empire compared to its contemporaries. Trying to pass it off as a success of Islam is a mistake and does a massive discredit to the many worthy things the Ottoman empire achieved.

aliihsanasl wrote: Edit : it's not just equivalent also rival of the Ottoman empire, Ottomans always saw Catholic church as the main boss Kingdoms add the puppets of it. Historians still argue that Fatih the conquerer poisoned by the order of the pope.


And you're still wrong. I can only assume that you are wrong either because your understanding of the Ottoman Empire is faulty or your understanding of the composition of the many and varied Kingdoms of Western Europe and their relationship with the Catholic Church is faulty.

How the Ottoman's viewed the Catholic Church is not an objective standard of measurement. The Catholic Church was not, not ever, an equivalent to the Ottoman Empire. One would only have to study briefly how the Ottoman Empire was arranged to see that.
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Re: What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

#54  Postby aliihsanasl » Apr 01, 2016 4:28 pm

Sendraks wrote:I can accept that the Sultans were tolerant but, there Sultans =/= the religion. They just happened to be tolerant individuals. History is replete with tolerant and intolerant individuals.

What caused them to be tolerant? I don't know. I'm not persuaded it was Islam, given that the same belief system seems equally capable of producing horrendously intolerant individuals. Clearly on tolerance, Islam is not inherently that much cop.


Sultans say that they represent Islam, take permission from Islamic clergy about their actions, they're caliph of the Islamic world when caliph call Muslims all around the world to protect Islam claiming that it's under attack just as in the first world war Muslims coming for battle, each Friday prayer they mention his name but Sultan is not religion, fine.

The same Sultans doesn't practice stoning punishment and I say it doesn't exist in Koran but just because a few newly established extremist Kingdoms or gangs practice it you said there is stoning in Islam. Isn't that a contradiction ?

Sendraks wrote:Christianity preaches "love they neighbour" and "thou shalt not kill" as fairly headline parts of its scripture, not to mention an adherence to the golden rule and "turning the other cheek". If people were following the scripture, you'd expect to see a similar bedrock of tolerance in Christianity. But we don't, almost as if there were other factors at play.


Bad practice can't be example or represent the scriptures right ? Parents warn their kids about a lot of bad things, don't smoke, be careful in traffic etc. if a kid had all these warnings but still did wrong is that the mistake of the parents or the kids ? Why would I blame the parent when it's kids fault ? There is a long history of peaceful time of Muslims even people who aren't fancy of Islam can't deny it's success, although there is such a good example why would I prefer to blame Islam because of today's bad practitioners. It's religion and they're expired long ago but there were times it was much more peaceful than today.

Sendraks wrote:Taken from the same Wikipedia page you quoted later and yet, for some reason, chose not to quote.

Ottoman religious tolerance was notable for being a bit better than that which existed elsewhere in other great past or contemporary empires, such as Spain or England


In the same sentence first it say notable and then a bit, what's the point of both increasing and decreasing the meaning of something ? If they're notable for being tolerant that means that's worth something to mention, on the other hand I prefer someone to be a bit more tolerant instead a bit less tolerant, wouldn't you ? Or would you prefer a bit the less tolerant one because of Islamophobia ?

Sendraks wrote:What you are arguing for and have been for most of this thread, I think of a misplaced sense of national loyalty, is for the superiority of the Ottoman empire compared to its contemporaries. Trying to pass it off as a success of Islam is a mistake and does a massive discredit to the many worthy things the Ottoman empire achieved


To tell the truth I would prefer to live in the land of Ottoman empire during the mediaeval times, actually who wouldn't ? Call it Islam or Sultans' tolerance even you accepted that they were more tolerant. Actually they were tolerant to non-Muslim minorities they weren't that friendly to other sects of Islam but still situation was much brighter than Europe which was suffering under the pressure of church. Nobody ever sold deed of heaven, burned with witchcraft accusations. If there would be a tiny bit of Ottoman or Islam admiration I wouldn't criticize Erdogan's policies that fiercely.

Sendraks don't be afraid to tell the truth, I know it's hard to accept that it was cool in the past but when compared to other games in the town Islam was better.
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Re: What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

#55  Postby Sendraks » Apr 01, 2016 4:39 pm

aliihsanasl wrote:
Sultans say that they represent Islam, take permission from Islamic clergy about their actions, they're caliph of the Islamic world when caliph call Muslims all around the world to protect Islam claiming that it's under attack just as in the first world war Muslims coming for battle, each Friday prayer they mention his name but Sultan is not religion, fine.

The same Sultans doesn't practice stoning punishment and I say it doesn't exist in Koran but just because a few newly established extremist Kingdoms or gangs practice it you said there is stoning in Islam. Isn't that a contradiction ?


Its not a contradiction, it further illustrates that the "peacefullness" of Islam is not inherent to Islam, but a product of the people leading those Islamic communities.

aliihsanasl wrote:Bad practice can't be example or represent the scriptures right ? Parents warn their kids about a lot of bad things, don't smoke, be careful in traffic etc. if a kid had all these warnings but still did wrong is that the mistake of the parents or the kids ? Why would I blame the parent when it's kids fault ? There is a long history of peaceful time of Muslims even people who aren't fancy of Islam can't deny it's success, although there is such a good example why would I prefer to blame Islam because of today's bad practitioners. It's religion and they're expired long ago but there were times it was much more peaceful than today.


I'm not denying that the Ottoman period did much to bring relative to peace to the Islamic world, but that is a product of the people in charge of the Empire, rather than any sort of inherent benefit of Islam.

Islam is, demonstrably, compatible with both peace and oppressive war-mongering, depending on who is calling the shots.

aliihsanasl wrote:In the same sentence first it say notable and then a bit, what's the point of both increasing and decreasing the meaning of something ? If they're notable for being tolerant that means that's worth something to mention, on the other hand I prefer someone to be a bit more tolerant instead a bit less tolerant, wouldn't you ? Or would you prefer a bit the less tolerant one because of Islamophobia ?


I agree it is worth mentioning and at no point have I said otherwise. What I have attempted to do and continue to attempt to do, is curb your hyperbole in describing how much better it was for the Jews in Islamic societies. And understanding why Jewish people had it good in the Ottoman empire is not simply answered "because religion."

aliihsanasl wrote:Sendraks don't be afraid to tell the truth, I know it's hard to accept that it was cool in the past but when compared to other games in the town Islam was better.


I'm not afraid to tell the truth. Things certainly looked better under the Ottoman Empire than elsewhere in Europe. Religious tolerance is a product of the Ottoman regime, not something inherent to Islam any more than it is to Christianity. And both religions preach tolerance.
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Re: What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

#56  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Apr 01, 2016 7:38 pm

aliihsanasl wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Sendraks wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
This is the problem. Are we talking about Islam as an ideal described in the koran, or the myriad different ways people practice it.


Well I think the fundamentalists keep their consciences clear in respect of the Koran by not "forcing" anyone to convert by making them a Muslim but instead giving them the wholly fair choice between "convert or die." Obviously no one is being "forced" to choose under that scenario, they either go willingly to Allah or to their deaths.

Cake or death?

Cake or death?

But that's something they made up themselves.
The early Muslims may have treated Christians as second class citizens, but they weren't given the choice 'convert or die'.


During the Ottoman period non-Muslim communities were not allowed to have house higher than Muslims, could only ride donkey clearly they were second class but their life and even more important than that their way of life and so culture was under protection. In a dispute between two Jews, Greeks or Armenians their own law was applied. But to tell the truth that's the practice applied during Ottoman period as I said. What was the method of Arabians during conquering Iraq, Syria, North of Africa and Spain there are different views. Even Islamisation of Turkish tribes of Anatolia is a discussion topic among historians.

The evidence of the early Arabic period, the conquest of the Levant, bears out that Christians and Jews were treated with respect to their own laws and religion as long as they did not conflict with the laws of the Umah. Heck prominent Christians like John of Damascus were both part of the Islamic court and allowed to write polemics against Islam.
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Re: What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

#57  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Apr 01, 2016 7:39 pm

tuco wrote: It was practised in similar fashion in Christian Europe too, at least around 1400,

Source?
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

#58  Postby tuco » Apr 01, 2016 8:14 pm

Konec Přemyslovců - http://www.ceskatelevize.cz/porady/1015 ... 801400011/

Unfortunately in language you probably do not understand. Though lets see:


Muslim and Christian rulers of the Middle Ages claimed that their power
emanated from God; the majority religion was closely associated with ideologies of
power (of caliphs, emperors, popes, kings). These ideologies clearly express the
religious inferiority of those who do not profess the majority faith, inferiority which is
to be reflected in social inferiority. Yet we also find clear religious and legal
injunctions concerning the toleration of members of rival religions within these
societies.


https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00 ... status.pdf

---

Quick Google

The rationale to accommodate such minorities came from notion that they were perceived as beneficial to rulers; merchants, artists, craftsmen, soldiers etc and since they could go basically anywhere, not like they had passport to show at border check, it made sense to accommodate them, up to a point I guess.

Unlike today when we do not want anyone to come because the market, so to say, is seemingly or in fact saturated, and our values or customs are seemingly or in fact threaten.
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Re: What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

#59  Postby Hobbes Choice » Apr 01, 2016 9:50 pm

What are the advantages over a pointed stick in the eye; or having your eye gouged out by a sharp spoon?

My solution is to keep my eyes, and adopt atheism.
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Re: What are the superiorities of Islam over Christianity ?

#60  Postby Hobbes Choice » Apr 01, 2016 9:51 pm

Arabs invented the decimal numerical system, and preserved the knowledge of the ancient Greeks and Romans.
Sadly they then adopted Islam and pretty much started to decline since then.
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