"What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the mosques...

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Re: "What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

#21  Postby SkyMutt » Apr 05, 2015 6:22 pm

metacristi wrote:
SkyMutt wrote:

It seems to me that any who wish to criticise Islam are free to do so, witness prominent critics such as Harris, Hirsi Ali, and others. That some voices are raised against this criticism by certain self-righteous individuals does not mean that it's being prevented. Do you have any evidence to support your assertion to the contrary?


It seems to you. Yet we still live in an age of political correctness and cultural relativism totally disconnected from facts. Important thresholds do exist if you haven't realized yet. Not necessarily in the laws. Sometimes blocking fully legitimate directions of research. Like the subject of islam. Just check for example what was the treatment of Hirsi Ali, Dawkins or Sam Harris in liberal circles (not necessarily also 'progressive').


I acknowledged that those who criticise Islam are in turn criticised. That is not the same as being prevented from criticising Islam, which is what you've asserted is happening. I asked you for evidence that supports your assertion, and you've failed to produce any.

metacristi wrote:There is a huge pressure on those holding different views on the problem of islam (other than the rosy cultural relativist view) and this shows, both Hirsi Ali and Harris made some strategic steps back (less Harris to his merit) in order to ease that pressure and deflect more efficiently the accusations of bigotry. To be honest if I had the same prominence i'd do the same, I cannot accuse them too much, this is the spirit of the time Yet this does not make less legitimate the view that islam is sufficiently different at the core from the other Abrahamic religions which to make necessary different approaches in order to modernize it durably. History I'm afraid proves this plenty.


More assertions, but no evidence that anybody in the West is being prevented from criticising Islam. Your narrative on this topic appears to be nothing more than a fantasy.

metacristi wrote:By the way why is islam in lower case in your paragraph above?


It isn't. You've failed to answer my question about this, and your false accusation in return is nothing more than blatant intellectual dishonesty. I'm inclined to think that the explanations for this supplied by other members may have some validity.

metacristi wrote:
What does criticism of Christianity have to do with empowering radical Islam? That is, what sort of "unfair" attacks against "the West" and Christianity are you referring to, and how do they relate to the issue of how Islam will develop?


The cultural relativist attacks on the West and Christianity have long history now so this is a rather odd question to ask in my view. Yes Christianity for example has problems but to misrepresent it in order to fit the islam model is definitely an abuse, in reality is not that difficult to see who is really moving the goalposts here.


What do these "attacks" have to do with empowering Islam? This is an honest question, no moving goalposts involved. You haven't even attempted to answer it.

metacristi wrote:The West on the other hand had and still has its dark sides but to accuse it for almost all the ills of the muslim world for example is an abuse and so is to severely downplay the role of the West in the making of modernity via claiming that the Scientific Revolution and the industrial revolution were 'multicultural endeavours'. There was definitely a concentrated effort in the last 70 years against both the West and Christianity even in Academia, some valid no doubt yet a sizeable part totally unfair, leading to modern witch hunting.

On the other hand we still do not have a quranic criticism on a par with Biblical criticism even in Western Academia (the Higher Criticism was one of the reasons which lead to the abandonment of inerrantism of the bible in christian circles and the advent of modern liberal Christianity). Plain apologetics for islam replaced serious scholarship long ago (as Maxime Rodinson pointed out well). How on Earth do we want to induce reform in islam if the basics of this religion are left basically untouched by modern criticism (due also to plain fear but this is no excuse) whist the West and Christianity are basically presented to Muslims as non alternatives, the source of all evil in the muslim world?


More bombastic polemics, but no answer to my question. The rest of your post is essentially repeating your particular point of view on this topic. While I agree that radical Islam is a negative force in this world, I also acknowledge that there is trenchant criticism of its tenets and the actions of those who subscribe to them. Your fantasy to the contrary is unconvincing.
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Re: "What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

#22  Postby metacristi » Apr 05, 2015 6:25 pm

Macdoc wrote:
To not see that the islamic world has failed so far to create societies with a healthy level of secularism in spite of a long exposure to Modernity is a huge blunder in my view.


Saddam's Iraq was very secular.

Muslim communities worldwide cannot be lumped together. My wealthy riding in Mississauga is 1/3 Muslim - very well integrated ( our MP is sometimes Muslim ) and as peacable if not more than the numerous others that comprise the Canadian mosaic of cultures.

We have not ghettoized them as happens in France which breeds resentment and opportunity for radicalism to take hold.



I do not want to argue too much on this subject, too many certitudes like this on this board and not really my intention to dissipate dogmas, but unfortunately Iraq hasn't been an exception to the model seen all over the muslim world after WW2 (see for example the book 'The Devil we don't know' by Nonie Darwish). Some level of secularism (induced by colonialists in large parts) existed but never amounted to a healthy level needed to create modern societies (as all dictators he had to appease islam in important ways to remain in power). Otherwise yes the situation was much better under Saddam than today.

http://www.amazon.com/Saddam-Husayn-Isl ... nskepti-20
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Re: "What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

#23  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Apr 05, 2015 6:29 pm

metacristi wrote:
Macdoc wrote:
To not see that the islamic world has failed so far to create societies with a healthy level of secularism in spite of a long exposure to Modernity is a huge blunder in my view.


Saddam's Iraq was very secular.

Muslim communities worldwide cannot be lumped together. My wealthy riding in Mississauga is 1/3 Muslim - very well integrated ( our MP is sometimes Muslim ) and as peacable if not more than the numerous others that comprise the Canadian mosaic of cultures.

We have not ghettoized them as happens in France which breeds resentment and opportunity for radicalism to take hold.



I do not want to argue too much on this subject, too many certitudes like this on this board and not really my intention to dissipate dogmas, but unfortunately Iraq hasn't been an exception to the model seen all over the muslim world after WW2 (see for example the book 'The Devil we don't know' by Nonie Darwish). Some level of secularism (induced by colonialists in large parts) existed but never amounted to a healthy level needed to create modern societies (as all dictators he had to appease islam in important ways to remain in power). Otherwise yes the sitation was much better under Saddam than today.

So much words, when you simply could have said that you cannot refute the point being made.
Blind accusations of dogmatism willl do nothing but demonstrate your inability to present facts for your position.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: "What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

#24  Postby metacristi » Apr 05, 2015 6:33 pm

metacristi wrote:
By the way why is islam in lower case in your paragraph above?

It isn't. You've failed to answer my question about this, and your false accusation in return is nothing more than blatant intellectual dishonesty. I'm inclined to think that the explanations for this supplied by other members may have some validity.



Some people do not see as better as you hawk eye. No dishonesty involved. I deleted this in my original post. As for the other points no reason to continue a polemics without any future.
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Re: "What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

#25  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Apr 05, 2015 6:37 pm

metacristi wrote:
metacristi wrote:
By the way why is islam in lower case in your paragraph above?

It isn't. You've failed to answer my question about this, and your false accusation in return is nothing more than blatant intellectual dishonesty. I'm inclined to think that the explanations for this supplied by other members may have some validity.



Some people do not see as better as you hawk eye. No dishonesty involved.

What utter rubbish.
There is no time limited in reading and responding to other peoples post.
If you make an accusation, you should make sure the offending text is actually present in the other person's post.

metacristi wrote: I deleted this in my original post. As for the other points no reason to continue a polemics without any future.

Well at least you finally admit you've got nothing beyond preconceived fantasy.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: "What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

#26  Postby metacristi » Apr 05, 2015 9:57 pm

Some continue with the same silly attempt to discredit me with all costs but they are only making a fool of themselves as usual. My mistake was completely unintentional, the difference between i and I is not that big and in a hurry I made a mistake and I asked that question. Big deal. Still some try to capitalize even on this. Shame. Secondly do not think you won something for you didn't, if someone has still the illusion that this forum is some great spark in knowledge one should think twice. the situation here It's rather a confirmation of what Pat Condell says here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6jiNMg1PAk , people inhabit the same 'bubble' which make even rational dissent basically impossible.

finally It's not that I do not have arguments it is that people here think to know too much, even if they read nothing or almost, which makes futile any rational discussion. If anyone is really interested to know the causes behind the multicultural history, but not only, of today one can consult for example Ricardo Duchesne's 'The Uniqueness of Western Civilization;, see also Toby E Huff's books regarding the apparition of the Scientific Revolution or Rodney Stark's 'The Victory of Reason' regarding some aspects of the role of Christianity in the making of modernity (I do not agree with all though, ultimately Christianity had largely a rather passive role; some good points though). Culture, religion included, did play an important role although the current multicultural considerations (often based rather on politics than reason) downplay this argument currently and one can barely write something outside without risking the carrier (for this is the state of the doctrine of academic freedom these days http://www.thecrimson.com/column/the-re ... age=single , open instigation at censorship in the name of ideology).

Happily there is still an evidence and the mounting anomalies in the current paradigm will force even the most dogmatic people to accept that we deal at least with legitimate directions of research along the lines I presented here. I don't think we have to wait long.
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Re: "What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

#27  Postby Macdoc » Apr 05, 2015 10:09 pm

Did we stumble into philo-wibble land ?? :yuk: :coffee:
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Re: "What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

#28  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Apr 05, 2015 10:36 pm

Macdoc wrote:Did we stumble into philo-wibble land ?? :yuk: :coffee:

Yep.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: "What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

#29  Postby WayOfTheDodo » Apr 06, 2015 2:50 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:The best way to defeat islam is education.

Right. How do you explain all the educated people who are still Muslims?

Indeed, how do you explain all the terrorists who are often from middle/upper middle class families?
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Re: "What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

#30  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Apr 06, 2015 8:59 am

WayOfTheDodo wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:The best way to defeat islam is education.

Right. How do you explain all the educated people who are still Muslims?

Indeed, how do you explain all the terrorists who are often from middle/upper middle class families?

That does not dispute the notion the education is the best, not perfect way to deconvert religious people.
Do you know of a better method/way?
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: "What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

#31  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 06, 2015 9:30 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
WayOfTheDodo wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:The best way to defeat islam is education.

Right. How do you explain all the educated people who are still Muslims?

Indeed, how do you explain all the terrorists who are often from middle/upper middle class families?

That does not dispute the notion the education is the best, not perfect way to deconvert religious people.
Do you know of a better method/way?


Exactly. It is very easy to say what will not work but come up with a positive plan whoa...
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Re: "What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

#32  Postby WayOfTheDodo » Apr 06, 2015 10:16 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
WayOfTheDodo wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:The best way to defeat islam is education.

Right. How do you explain all the educated people who are still Muslims?

Indeed, how do you explain all the terrorists who are often from middle/upper middle class families?

That does not dispute the notion the education is the best, not perfect way to deconvert religious people.
Do you know of a better method/way?

Not really. I guess providing an alternative might help a bit, as discussed here:

https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.co ... -go-wrong/
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Re: "What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

#33  Postby metacristi » Apr 06, 2015 11:47 am

To be a Christian (via accepting minimally the Resurrection of Christ and a few others) one does not depend on the perefction (or at least inerrantism) of the Bible, the arguments can be meaningfully diconnected. There is an internal logic indside the Christian worldview leading to liberal Christianity (one has also to mention that symbolic interpretations and confining past events to their historical context is the very way in which the orthodox Christianity was formed, they existed since the beginning).

In islam on the other hand one has to begin necessarily from the perfection of the quran (even the extreme view that it was uncreated, a view accepted by majorities of muslims today by the way) and the mechanisms which can be used in Christianity or even Judaism are explicitly discouraged in basic islamic tenets (critical reason applied to the basics of Religion included). There is no obvious internal logic here leading to the counterpart of liberal Christianity.

People can and do ignore some parts but this is not because of an internal logic, it is because they want that. What they say is basically that by definition islam is peace, sharia is highly compatible with modernity etc, not far from the hypothetical scenario in which someone, entirely honest otherwise, attempt to claim that Nazism is actually benign. Finally basically all ideologies can be whitewashed via such strategies if people really want that (while remaining fully honest, accepting large parts of modern principles and laws) but how tenable are they in the light of Rationality?

If we really want to succeed we should instill in the hearts of muslims that maybe a more general view on spirituality is the real path, to move vast majorities of them closer toward what one can call 'cultural islam'. Also via instilling the idea that the conclusions of the unaided Human Reason are more important sometimes that what is written in the holy book. This is actually what has been done to some extent in eastern Europe where the muslims are exrtremely quiet (including in my country) when compared with other categories of muslims (beware though one arrived at this mainly via exposing them to a strong 'cultural pressure', among others they couldn't preach what they want, from the part of the rather secular christian majorities and communism via a quite long time, and this in isolation from mainstream islam).

Education alone i don't think will work if the whole edifice is left basically untoched via minimal reform or in the total absence of at least some kind of intellectual pressure from the part of non muslims. Besides, according to Bart Ehrtman at least, all future Christian priests in america are now exposed to the findings of biblical criticism, they are made aware of the limits of Christianity. Now how many islamic clerics are exposed constantly to the view that the quran has a history, just like Christinity, and that the quran is far from perfection, even in the West? For it is with these clerics and islamic scholars where the reform should start (not Nawaz)...Not many unfortunately since the quranic criticism itself in Western Academia is in a poor state at the moment.

You can bark as much as you wish (about no true muslim and other aberrations) but this does not make shallow assumptions more probable to lead you to truth. What I proposed, islam needs a different approach if we really want to bring it finally and durably 'in line' with modernity, is I'm afraid a fully legitimate direction of research.
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Re: "What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

#34  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Apr 06, 2015 12:16 pm

So much verbal diarrhea. :nono:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: "What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

#35  Postby metacristi » Apr 06, 2015 12:31 pm

Sheesh how much wisdom. Atheist fundie version. I'm impressed.
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Re: "What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

#36  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 06, 2015 12:36 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:So much verbal diarrhea. :nono:


With so little constructiveness.

Education is the only way at present. If we here in the west can create pockets of doubt that are exported via families back to muslim countries then slowly a change will take place. Confrontation is not the way forward as it is exactly what they expect. The same way as the catholic and protestant churches were slowly chipped away at and are finally collapsing and exactly is happening to islam here. They build mosques but have nobody to fill them. The extremists are being refused their high octane fuel by not allowing certain fire breathing imams into the country. Plenty of islama's are enjoying and seeing the benefits of education. They are the future.
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Re: "What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

#37  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Apr 06, 2015 12:41 pm

metacristi wrote:Sheesh how much wisdom. Atheist fundie version. I'm impressed.

I'm impressed that you apparently fail to understand what atheism is. Not surprised given the simplistic guff you keep regurgitating about Christianity and Islam.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: "What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

#38  Postby metacristi » Apr 06, 2015 12:56 pm

The problem with islam go well beyond the Islamic terrorism part I'm afraid. The rabbit hole is much deeper. We have to do in such a way that sharia never (at least) influence the laws, this even if muslims become large majorities. I doubt the policy suggested above can lead to that, in the sense it is far from being enough in the front of existing evidence. Finally it is not confrontation, It is just telling frankly the truth via rational criticism. The real way ahead.
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Re: "What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

#39  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Apr 06, 2015 1:05 pm

Nope, you're just repeatedly evacuating your bowels and treating the resulting mess as profound insight.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: "What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

#40  Postby laklak » Apr 06, 2015 1:38 pm

ISIS wants what every other bunch of totalitarian dickheads wants; all the money, all the power, and all the women. It's naked bullying cloaked in a veneer of religious woo. There are two options when dealing with a persistent bully, either capitulate and do what they want, or kick the living shit out of them. I have generally chosen the second option and see no reason it wouldn't work in this situation. If that creates more bullies then kick the shit out of them, too. Rinse and repeat. Your mileage may differ.
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