"What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the mosques...

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Re: "What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

#41  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 06, 2015 1:45 pm

laklak wrote:ISIS wants what every other bunch of totalitarian dickheads wants; all the money, all the power, and all the women. It's naked bullying cloaked in a veneer of religious woo. There are two options when dealing with a persistent bully, either capitulate and do what they want, or kick the living shit out of them. I have generally chosen the second option and see no reason it wouldn't work in this situation. If that creates more bullies then kick the shit out of them, too. Rinse and repeat. Your mileage may differ.


The trouble is it will not give a permanent solution. I agree in the short term but long term another method has to be found.
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Re: "What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

#42  Postby laklak » Apr 06, 2015 1:49 pm

I'm not sanguine about the prospects of finding a permanent solution. It's like playing Whack-A-Mole, as soon as you bash one another two pop up. There's always some wild-eyed fanatic waiting in the wings. Ground apes will be ground apes, after all.

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Re: "What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

#43  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 06, 2015 1:51 pm

laklak wrote:I'm not sanguine about the prospects of finding a permanent solution. It's like playing Whack-A-Mole, as soon as you bash one another two pop up. There's always some wild-eyed fanatic waiting in the wings. Ground apes will be ground apes, after all.

Jesus, I'm an optimistic twat, aren't I?


Very :think:
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Re: "What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

#44  Postby laklak » Apr 06, 2015 1:52 pm

Lol. I'll be a real Pollyanna by the time I'm 80.
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Re: "What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

#45  Postby metacristi » Apr 06, 2015 4:59 pm

People without brain can think indeed like the guy at #39 (the mark of a troll as well, everything I write is followed by his nonsense; better to write elsewhere, won't be missed).

Returning to more serious things people here may be tempted to push the 'extremism', lack of 'empathy', 'phobia' and so on card on me. This is entirely false for I have nothing against people and I am sympathetic with all their legitimate secular demands. Yet I cannot lie to them either for cold reason show that indeed there are big problems with the ideology of islam and this may affect us all muslims and non muslims alike at some time in the future when all that remained constant is the quran and other Islamic traditions.

It is not our fault that islam has very problematic foundations, making very difficult for muslims to take 'on board' the principles of Enlightenment. Vilifying me is like saying to Churchill in the 30s, at a time when many others thought that the peace loving Germans should not be provoked, that he's extreme because he criticized Hitler (later he labelled Mein Kampf as the new Quran). I'm sure that truly moderate muslims will understand what I am saying, I am in no way a foe to be clear.

Finally don't forget that this is only my own point of view, the decisions will be taken by us all. I am only very sceptical that we are on the right path.
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Re: "What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

#46  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Apr 06, 2015 5:05 pm

metacristi wrote:People without brain can think indeed like the guy at #39 (the mark of a troll as well, everything I write is followed by his nonsense; better to write elsewhere, won't be missed).

Unless you are gunning for suicide by mod, I suggest you stick to the FUA you signed and stop with the personal remarks.
And as usual, your blind and desperate handwaving do nothing to adress, much less refute the points I've made.

metacristi wrote:Returning to more serious things people here may be tempted to push the 'extremism', lack of 'empathy', 'phobia' and so on card on me.

Why don't you stop trying to poison the well and deal with what people actually post?
Or is that to much to ask?

metacristi wrote: This is entirely false for I have nothing against people and I am sympathetic with all their legitimate secular demands. Yet I cannot lie to them either for cold reason show that indeed there are big problems with the ideology of islam and this may affect us all muslims and non muslims alike at some time in the future when all that remained constant is the quran and other Islamic traditions.

Yet you seem perfectly willing to post numerous blind and often counterfactual assertions about them, Christianity and other topics.

metacristi wrote:It is not our fault that islam has very problematic foundations, making very difficult for muslims to take 'on board' the principles of Enlightenment.

Still mindless guff, no matter how many times you repeat it.


metacristi wrote: Vilifying me is like saying to Churchill in the 30s, at a time when many others thought that the peace loving Germans should not be provoked, that he's extreme because he criticized Hitler and labelled Mein Kampf as the new Quran. I'm sure that truly moderate muslims will understand what I am saying, I am in no way a foe to be clear.

Again with the false accusations.
Quote someone villifying you or cut this crap out.

metacristi wrote: Finally don't forget that this is only my own point of view, the decisions will be taken by us all. I am only very sceptical that we are on the right path.

You should try basing your skepcticism on facts, rather than preconceived notions and black and white thinking.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: "What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

#47  Postby metacristi » Apr 06, 2015 5:25 pm

You don't have a life mate? Read Chruchill for example, he definitely understood islam much better than you do.
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Re: "What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

#48  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Apr 06, 2015 6:16 pm

metacristi wrote:You don't have a life mate?

Forgotten the FUA you signed?
And I'm not your mate.

metacristi wrote:Read Chruchill for example, he definitely understood islam much better than you do.

More rectal matter in lieu of actual evidence or arguments. Quelle surprise. :roll:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: "What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

#49  Postby metacristi » Apr 06, 2015 8:32 pm

Have you ever had a point? Let me guess, hmm...it's the Rolling eyes isn't it?

I put such behaviour in the same category with intimidation in order to prevent people to speak freely their mind. By the way who said here that people are free to criticize islam, free also from intimidation (which leads ultimately to the same outcome via self-censorship)? I'm sorry but the reality is completely different:

http://allenbwest.com/2014/04/british-p ... nts-islam/
http://online.wsj.com/articles/no-offen ... 1414783663

Probably Churchill himself would be prosecuted for 'hatred' these days. The problem is that more and more people from the street realize that there is nothing extreme with criticizing islam rationally. The self reinforced bubble of political correctness won't last long in front of reality.
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Re: "What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

#50  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Apr 06, 2015 8:48 pm

metacristi wrote:Have you ever had a point? Let me guess, hmm...it's the Rolling eyes isn't it?

Pretending that I didn't refute your vacuous guff in the other thread won't change the fact that I did.

metacristi wrote:I put such behaviour in the same category with intimidation in order to prevent people to speak freely their mind.

What an asinine thing to say.
How does posting a smiley in any way intimidate someone, much less prevent them from posting.
Fucking hilarious.
:lol:

metacristi wrote: By the way who said here that people are free to criticize islam, free also from intimidation (which leads ultimately to the same outcome via self-censorship)? I'm sorry but the reality is completely different:

http://allenbwest.com/2014/04/british-p ... nts-islam/
http://online.wsj.com/articles/no-offen ... 1414783663

Probably Churchill himself would be prosecuted for 'hatred' these days. The problem is that more and more people from the street realize that there is nothing extreme with criticizing islam rationally. The self reinforced bubble of political correctness won't last long in front of reality.

Oh look, it's appeal to anecdote fallacy time.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: "What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

#51  Postby igorfrankensteen » Apr 06, 2015 11:14 pm

None of the modern disruptive movements are as simple as they are being made out to be... by the mass media, by the loudest politicians, and especially not by the movements themselves.

Human nature doesn't work that way, and never has.

It is an act of compounding misunderstanding, to look ONLY at the fact that lots of people are referring back to ancient violent religious texts to give themselves an additional sense of authority. It shows even less perspicacity to declare that wiping them out in a "Biblical" fashion is a logical or insightful response. Not to mention that such a "solution" is beyond impractical.

The insight required, is to recognize that the problem which We are presented with, is actually someone else's solution.

And that therefore, "solving" our problem in such a simple-minded way, will only at best, serve to reinstate the original problem, which caused the unpleasant "solutions" to be tried. And further, the more we narrow our focus to ONLY "solving" our own end of the challenge, the less likely we are to ever come close to successfully overcoming it.
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Re: "What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

#52  Postby SkyMutt » Apr 07, 2015 1:28 am

laklak wrote:ISIS wants what every other bunch of totalitarian dickheads wants; all the money, all the power, and all the women. It's naked bullying cloaked in a veneer of religious woo. There are two options when dealing with a persistent bully, either capitulate and do what they want, or kick the living shit out of them. I have generally chosen the second option and see no reason it wouldn't work in this situation. If that creates more bullies then kick the shit out of them, too. Rinse and repeat. Your mileage may differ.


The article in the OP presents a different approach. That is, contain them and proceed to administer the death of a thousand cuts.

Properly contained, the Islamic State is likely to be its own undoing. No country is its ally, and its ideology ensures that this will remain the case. The land it controls, while expansive, is mostly uninhabited and poor. As it stagnates or slowly shrinks, its claim that it is the engine of God’s will and the agent of apocalypse will weaken, and fewer believers will arrive.


According to Wood (the article's author), they would welcome a large scale attack (aka kicking the living shit out of them) and such an action would in fact only encourage more recruits to their cause. We saw a result along these lines coming from the invasion and occupation of Iraq. You appear to be suggesting more of the same, but maybe I misunderstand.
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Re: "What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

#53  Postby laklak » Apr 07, 2015 2:30 am

Not more of the same, because that didn't work. Iraq and Afghanistan are self-destructing, Syria is in chaos, Libya is a failed state. I'm suggesting a far, far more violent approach. They're spoiling for a fight, waiting for the "Armies of Rome" to meet them at Dabiq. Cool. Meet them there. It's flat farmland, sparsely inhabited. You couldn't ask for better terrain to do what the U.S. and it's allies do better than anyone else in the world - all out conventional warfare.

Those Taliban Toyotas and their handful of T-64s and T-55s aren't standing long against Abrams and Warthogs. Their few mostly non-functional, 60s vintage MIGs wouldn't last 15 minutes, assuming they have the wherewithal to field them. Exterminate them. As the article points out, without territory there is no caliphate. No caliphate, no ISIS. Knock them down hard and fast, stomp them into the dirt, burn their villages and towns and cities. The author claims ISIS has no support from any legitimate Arabic or Islamic government, so they're certainly not going to object, particularly if after we destroy them we just pack up and leave. No more occupying forces, no "nation building", no benefits of democracy, no humanitarian aid, just utter and complete devastation. Leave the bodies for the vultures.

Whether it's ISIS or Al Qaeda, or some other bunch of rabid, 7th century jihadis, we're going to have to deal with them some day. These people aren't going away, they despise the "moderns", they despise kaffirs, they despise democracy, they despise other muslims, basically they despise every single aspect of life in the modern world. Their stated aim is to exterminate a huge percentage of the world's population and enslave the survivors. So open the emigration queues, buy tickets for whoever wants to go over there and fight with them. Get them all into one area and then kill them. They want an apocalypse, give it to them.
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Re: "What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

#54  Postby Macdoc » Apr 07, 2015 2:36 am

Of course letting them wear each other out first sort of comes out of that scenario.

The risk of confrontation is civilian casualties radicalizing more of the population.

My sense is that it's an Middle East problem....Yankee and EU stay out.
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Re: "What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

#55  Postby metacristi » Apr 07, 2015 6:32 pm

As far as I see what i wrote here produced a mass knee jerk reaction not that far from 'here is another fanatic/irrepsonsible/lunatic/ who wants to take the rights of the poor muslims, even more let's colonize them, let's march them to the nearest ditch and shoot them there'. Let's put the things straight before ending all this charade in which i was drawn, there are better things to do in life (my intention was only to say my point of view, look again).

When i said that if the muslims world ever reformed in non trivial ways that was when some pressure was applied on it was a conlcusion drawn from history, and I'm afraid this is a hard fact. Without the actions of the European Powers up to the beginning of the 20th century it is very probable that, for example, slavery would still be the rule in the islamic world.
However when i advocated to apply pressure on muslims now I meant intellectual pressure via rational arguments. It is nothing else than to finally bring the quranic criticism on a par with Biblical criticism and also correct the rosy picture of the history of islam to what was really the situation (for there are solid reasons even for such a change). Finally the idea is to expose musilims to a rational criticism of islam.

Completely different from the 'you don't take any prisoners do you?' thought by some shallow thinkers here. The ironic fact here is that many of these western aplogists of islam do not hesitate a second to push aggresively the view that the bible has a lot of mistakes whilst at the same time appease muslims to not 'alienate them'. Inacceptable double standards I'm afraid.
People should think twice befiore raising the stone, my advice to them is to go rahter study carefully the mechanisms behind the European Enlightenment and Modernity and they will see that biblical criticism did play a major role for the advent of liberal Christianity (accepting that the bible is not inerrant thus opening the way to massive concessions).

The quranic criticism today in Western Academia is I'm afraid not very far from the apologetic approach of the so called 'islamic scholars' which is still based on Middle Ages methodologies. No one dare move in front there even now (another problem to ponder, why on Earth is it so given that the muslim world has been exposed to Modernity for a long time now; lack of education, the negative influence of the West? I don't think so. Guess where is the problem. I don't think the passing of time alone is enough to change something).

If we do not expose muslims to criticism and let the same rosy picture of islam and its history persist I don't think we can change something on long term. Why on Earth change something if everything is so well with Islam and its history?

Now you may think that you'll change them tomorrow via ignoring exposing them to criticism of islam on short term (as some propose here). Well in this case pray god that muslims remain a small minority (even so impotant islamic terrorism will probalbly arrive and stay for a long time in the West) or even that the far right come to power for otherwise if they become very sizeable it is more probable that they will reform you to accept at least parts of the defective aspects of sharia in the laws (around 20% of sharia comes direclty from the quran itself, this is very very unlikely to change in the absence of non trivial reforms). If you cannot make them reform today what reason is there than you'll can do that if they become more numerous thus less easily to influence?

Finally there is the problem of whether islam is inherently more radical than christianity and even judaism. I'd say there is plenty of evidence that this is indeed the case, History, correctly interpreted, and the observed resistance to Modernity in the Islamic world do full justice to this view (after hundreds of years of exposure to Modernity it is at least unrealistic to still try to find other main factors).

It won't be at all easy to reform islam, do not make yourself illusions, finally because unaided Human Reason do not have any precendece in religious affairs (completely different in Christianity and even Judaism where the rabbi were able to ignore some key requirements of the mosaic law long ago, be it forced as after the end of the Second Temple period but which never returned later). It can be done but only via a real islamic Enlightenment (as proposed by ibn Warraq) and accepting openly that the conclusions of the unaided Human Reason are more important sometimes than what is written in the holy book.
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Re: "What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

#56  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Apr 07, 2015 6:46 pm

metacristi wrote:As far as I see what i wrote here produced a mass knee jerk reaction not that far from 'here is another fanatic/irrepsonsible/lunatic/ who wants to take the rights of the poor muslims, even more let's colonize them, let's march them to the nearest ditch and shoot them there'. Let's put the things straight before ending all this charade in which i was drawn, there are better things to do in life (my intention was only to say my point of view, look again).

Still engaging with fantasy, rather than the posts in this thread.
Care to quote even a single post where this sentiment was expressed? Oh, that's right, you can't, because it didn't happen.
Once again trying to dismiss other people's post with well poisoning, baseless accusations. :naughty:

metacristi wrote:When i said that if the muslims world ever reformed in non trivial ways that was when some pressure was applied on it was a conlcusion drawn from history, and I'm afraid this is a hard fact.

And no-one's disputing that.
It's merely been pointed out to you that your black and white rants about Islam are flawed and counterfactual.
As is your description of Christianity.


metacristi wrote: Without the actions of the European Powers up to the beginning of the 20th century it is very probable that, for example, slavery would still be the rule in the islamic world.

Oh, you mean like it was in the Western world for 1500 years?


metacristi wrote:However when i advocated to apply pressure on muslims now I meant intellectual pressure via rational arguments. It is nothing else than to finally bring the quranic criticism on a par with Biblical criticism and also correct the rosy picture of the history of islam to what was really the situation (for there are solid reasons even for such a change). Finally the idea is to expose musilims to a rational criticism of islam.

It's been repeatedly pointed out to you that there is already much criticism of the Quran and Islam. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

metacristi wrote:Completely different from the 'you don't take any prisoners do you?' thought by some shallow thinkers here.

More fantastical accusations. :roll:

metacristi wrote: The ironic fact here is that many of these western aplogists of islam do not hesitate a second to push aggresively the view that the bible has a lot of mistakes whilst at the same time appease muslims to not 'alienate them'. Inacceptable double standards I'm afraid.

And everyone in this thread agrees.
Most of us also object to your fantasies about a far less harmful Christianity.

metacristi wrote: People should think twice befiore raising the stone,

What stone?
Seriously these wild and baseless accusations are just silly and won't do anything to support your position.

metacristi wrote: my advice to them is to go rahter study carefully the mechanisms behind the European Enlightenment and Modernity and they will see that biblical criticism did play a major role for the advent of liberal Christianity (accepting that the bible is not inerrant thus opening the way to massive concessions).

You'll find that most people on this site are quite educated in many different subjects.
The emperor is naked and no ammount of vacuous assertions will make clothes magically appear.

metacristi wrote:The qiuranic criticism today in Western Academia is I'm afraid not very far from the apologetic approach of the so called 'islamic scholars' which is still based on Middle Ages methodologies.

Oh look, more blind counterfactual assertions.

metacristi wrote: No one dare move in front there even now (another problem to ponder, why on Earth is it so given that the muslim world has been exposed to Modernity for a long time now; lack of education, the negative influence of the West? I don't think so. Guess where is the problem. I don't think the passing of time alone is enough to change something).

Nor is your MO of blind assertions and appeals to ignorance a useful addition.

metacristi wrote:If we do not expose muslims to criticism and let the same rosy picture of islam and its history persist I don't think we can change something on long term. Why on Earth change something if everything is so well with Islam and its history?
Now you may think that you'll change them tomorrow via ignoring exposing them to criticism of islam on short term (as some propose here). Well in this case pray god that muslims remain a small minority (even so impotant islamic terrorism will probalbly arrive and stay for a long time in the West) or even that the far right come to power for otherwise if they become very sizeable it is more probable that they will reform you to accept at least parts of the defective aspects of sharia in the laws (around 20% of sharia comes direclty from the quran itself, this is very very unlikely to change in the absence of non trivial reforms). If you cannot make them reform today what reason is there than you'll can do that if they become more numerous thus less easily to influence?

Finally there is the problem of whether islam is inherently more radcial than christianity and even judaism. I'd say there is plenty of evidence that this is indeed the case, History, correctly interpreted, and the observed resistance to Modernity in the Islamic world do full justice to this view (after hundreds of years of exposure to Modernity it is at least unrealistic to still try to find other main factors).

It won't be at all easy to reform islam, do not make yourself illusions, finally because unaided Human Reason do not have any precendece in religious affairs (completely sdifferent in Christianity and even Judaism where the rabbi were able to ignore some key requirements of the mosaic law long ago, be it forced as after the end of the Second Temple period, but which never returned later). It can be done but only via a real islamic Enlightenment (as proposed by ibn Warraq) and accepting openly that unaided Human Reason is more important sometimes than what is written in the holy book.

FFS metacristi will you stuff your fantasies and deal with what's actually posted?
No-one's argued Muslims, Islam, or the Quran are harmless, should not be criticised or any of nonsense you've asserted above.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: "What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

#57  Postby metacristi » Apr 07, 2015 6:52 pm

Still in the zone? (see Sheldon in the 'The Big Bang Theory'). This is reality, Hello? One last advice by the way. Read carefully first what others say, let some time pass to cool yourself, and only later write a rational answer. I told you before, oceans of ad hominems thrown minutes after a post do not count as arguments.
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Re: "What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

#58  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Apr 07, 2015 7:14 pm

metacristi wrote:Still in the zone? (see Sheldon in the 'The Big Bang Theory').

Why wouldn't I be?

metacristi wrote: This is reality, Hello?

That's rich coming from you. :lol:

metacristi wrote: One last advice by the way. Read carefully first what others say,

Like you don't, you mean? With your fantastical accusations.


metacristi wrote: let some time pass to cool yourself,

You can stuff the psycho-analysing since you clearly suck at it.
Nowhere have I expressed tenstion of any sort.

metacristi wrote: and only later write a rational answer.

Again, given your own waffling in this and the other thread, this statement is quite stupendous.

metacristi wrote: I told you before, oceans of ad hominems thrown minutes after a post do not count as arguments.

I've told you before you don't know what an ad-hom is, evident by the fact that you cannot quote a single instance of me employing one. Because I haven't made any.
And I have thouroughly refuted your assertions both here and in the other thread, so this statement is dishonest horse shit.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: "What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

#59  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Apr 07, 2015 7:15 pm

Oh and your complete failure to adress the points made in my previous post, has been noted.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: "What ISIS Really Wants" - 'The Atlantic' Article

#60  Postby metacristi » Apr 08, 2015 9:54 pm

What points? Moving the goalposts to claim that Christianity leads to the same violence as Islam? I told you from the beginning in that thread that you do not fully understand either Christianity or Islam (check with more attention for example the attitude toward Reason in the theology of islam and Christianity, also most of what you present as 'violence' has not been used even by the cardinals of Pope urban II to justify the crusades, you recreate Christianity in accordance with what you want to prove). Waste of time to debate you. Sometimes you'll understand, let's at least hope, not my obligation to make you understand now.
metacristi
 
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