Why All Muslims Benefit from Terrorism

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Re: Why All Muslims Benefit from Terrorism

#21  Postby quas » Jun 14, 2017 5:39 am

Cito di Pense wrote:Again, these hypotheses are supported only by anecdotes and gut feelings, and not by the weight of statistical evidence.

If a tree falls in a forest...
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Re: Why All Muslims Benefit from Terrorism

#22  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 14, 2017 5:51 am

quas wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:Again, these hypotheses are supported only by anecdotes and gut feelings, and not by the weight of statistical evidence.

If a tree falls in a forest...


Oh, hell, quas. Few things sadden me more than an unprincipled apathy.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Why All Muslims Benefit from Terrorism

#23  Postby quas » Jun 14, 2017 5:55 am

"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"
If a statistical occurrence occurs, and no statistician is around to record it, does it count as a statistical occurrence?

How many people have actually studied whether terrorist attacks are causing more conversion?
If no one studies them, so statistically-speaking, this phenomenon doesn't exist.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem
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Re: Why All Muslims Benefit from Terrorism

#24  Postby Manticore » Jun 14, 2017 6:01 am

quas wrote:
Manticore wrote:Must show this to some of my Muslim friends. Give them a good laugh.


And when they do laugh, accuse them of practicing taqiya, it would only make the laughter more boisterous.


Taqiya: "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar."
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Re: Why All Muslims Benefit from Terrorism

#25  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 14, 2017 6:06 am

quas wrote:How many people have actually studied whether terrorist attacks are causing more conversion?
If no one studies them, so statistically-speaking, this phenomenon doesn't exist.


Awww. Sorry, quas. Nobody wants to ride your pony and pay you a nickel.

Your second statement is a non-sequitur relative to your first, based on an absurdist metaphysics. Try again. As Beckett said, "Fail again. Fail better."

The point is that if people haven't studied the problem, then drawing firm conclusions from anecdotes and gut feelings is an exercise for polemicists. The shit you're spouting is not even wrong. That someone is recognizing your failure is not a conclusion that you couldn't make an argument. It's just that you haven't done so, yet, and you're resorting to quips instead of pulling up your pants. What you're doing is infantile.

You'll also notice that I haven't insisted that statistics will settle the question, because social scientists studying problems at this scale are collecting anecdotes. All I'm saying is that analyzing a systematic collection of anecdotes is better than not analyzing anything and just spouting bollocks.
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Re: Why All Muslims Benefit from Terrorism

#26  Postby quas » Jun 14, 2017 6:28 am

Cito di Pense wrote:Awww. Sorry, quas. Nobody wants to ride your pony and pay you a nickel.

I never charge anyone to ride my pony. Enjoy your free ride.

The point is that if people haven't studied the problem, then drawing firm conclusions from anecdotes and gut feelings is an exercise for polemicists. The shit you're spouting is not even wrong. That someone is recognizing your failure is not a conclusion that you couldn't make an argument. It's just that you haven't done so, yet, and you're resorting to quips instead of pulling up your pants. What you're doing is infantile.

So you want the statistical data?

You'll also notice that I haven't insisted that statistics will settle the question, because social scientists studying problems at this scale are collecting anecdotes. All I'm saying is that analyzing a systematic collection of anecdotes is better than not analyzing anything and just spouting bollocks.

So you don't want the data, because it's all just anecdotes.
Why should anyone even bother giving you the data when eventually you are going to discredit them as "anecdotes"?
Data costs money to collect. My pony rides are always free.
Which is why you are only getting free pony rides.
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Re: Why All Muslims Benefit from Terrorism

#27  Postby tuco » Jun 14, 2017 7:02 am

Yeah, every time a pony is ridden, all ponies benefit from it.
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Re: Why All Muslims Benefit from Terrorism

#28  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 14, 2017 7:08 am

quas wrote:
Why should anyone even bother giving you the data when eventually you are going to discredit them as "anecdotes"?


That's right, quas. Your brilliant theory is stillborn, because neither you nor Wood have systematically collected any data. When you do collect data, you can at least say that is what someone observed, but you haven't managed that, have you? You're just woofing on the internet, and some people woof better than you do. See, Beckett.

Yes, you can conclude that it's pointless to collect data on this matter. You could be right. Study something else in that case. Whatever you do, exhorting people to take action based on anecdotes is irresponsible (which is a sad state of affairs for people touting moral responsibility). That's what I contrast with principled apathy. When you're pig-ignorant of the facts, inaction is almost inevitably better than action, and to go against that, you have to be some kind of gambler. You've heard of gambler's ruin, have you not? Another way of putting this is that nature always cleans its plate. Even if you don't gamble, you always lose, courtesy of the second law of thermodynamics, something you may have heard of, but it tells you that things getting worse is normal. If, however, you are a betting man, maybe it's Pascal's Wager you're on about at this point.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Why All Muslims Benefit from Terrorism

#29  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jun 14, 2017 7:27 am

quas wrote:
Rachel Bronwyn wrote:Uh, how would leaving Islam prevent terrorists killing them? That would make them a target for additional reasons.


Which is why terrorism benefits the religion, and thus its adherents.

Welcome to non-sequitur hour.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Why All Muslims Benefit from Terrorism

#30  Postby quas » Jun 14, 2017 7:43 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
quas wrote:
Rachel Bronwyn wrote:Uh, how would leaving Islam prevent terrorists killing them? That would make them a target for additional reasons.


Which is why terrorism benefits the religion, and thus its adherents.

Welcome to non-sequitur hour.


The hell are you talking about?

She's just perfectly explained how terrorists are acting like the sharia police.
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Re: Why All Muslims Benefit from Terrorism

#31  Postby Fallible » Jun 14, 2017 7:47 am

:scratch:
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Re: Why All Muslims Benefit from Terrorism

#32  Postby quas » Jun 14, 2017 7:51 am

Cito di Pense wrote:Yes, you can conclude that it's pointless to collect data on this matter. You could be right. Study something else in that case. Whatever you do, exhorting people to take action based on anecdotes is irresponsible (which is a sad state of affairs for people touting moral responsibility).


What if by having this discussion, by inserting this issue into the public discourse, we could actually compel social scientists to get off their asses and study this phenomenon and thus provide you with the data that you so desperately wanted (just so that you could discredit those data as "anecdotes" and bolster your sense of superiority, of course). What if, what if.
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Re: Why All Muslims Benefit from Terrorism

#33  Postby Fallible » Jun 14, 2017 7:56 am

What phenomenon?
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She never listened to no hater, liar,
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Re: Why All Muslims Benefit from Terrorism

#34  Postby quas » Jun 14, 2017 8:11 am

Fallible wrote::scratch:


You need an analogy?

Suppose, after a string of sexual attacks in your neighbourhood, you hear a rumour going around that a man living in your neighborhood is the sexual predator responsible for the attacks. Not just a sexual predator, but also an expert at grooming his victims without using a literal hairbrush (if you know what I mean). Being a smart and rational person, not one inclined to trust rumours and hearsays, you decided that the best way to find out the truth is to meet the man, talk to the man, and get to know him yourself. And voila! You are now madly in love with this man.

Maybe you should have trusted those rumours in the first place?
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Re: Why All Muslims Benefit from Terrorism

#35  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 14, 2017 8:18 am

quas wrote:You need an analogy?


Yeah, we need an analogy, instead of appeals to emotion. More than that, we want evidence of this 'phenomenon' you speak of. You came equipped with anecdotes, innuendo and alarmism, and someone is skeptical. Cry me a river.
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Re: Why All Muslims Benefit from Terrorism

#36  Postby Fallible » Jun 14, 2017 8:19 am

quas wrote:
Fallible wrote::scratch:


You need an analogy?

Suppose, after a string of sexual attacks in your neighbourhood, you hear a rumour going around that a man living in your neighborhood is the sexual predator responsible for the attacks. Not just a sexual predator, but also an expert at grooming his victims without using a literal hairbrush (if you know what I mean). Being a smart and rational person, not one inclined to trust rumours and hearsays, you decided that the best way to find out the truth is to meet the man, talk to the man, and get to know him yourself. And voila! You are now madly in love with this man.

Maybe you should have trusted those rumours in the first place?


I don't need an analogy, no. I need you to tell me what the phenomenon is.
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Re: Why All Muslims Benefit from Terrorism

#37  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jun 14, 2017 8:22 am

quas wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
quas wrote:
Rachel Bronwyn wrote:Uh, how would leaving Islam prevent terrorists killing them? That would make them a target for additional reasons.


Which is why terrorism benefits the religion, and thus its adherents.

Welcome to non-sequitur hour.


The hell are you talking about?

She's just perfectly explained how terrorists are acting like the sharia police.

Wrong. She pointed out why many Muslims do not benefit from terrorism.
To which you replied, indeed that's why they do. :picard:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Why All Muslims Benefit from Terrorism

#38  Postby quas » Jun 14, 2017 9:01 am

Fallible wrote:
quas wrote:
Fallible wrote::scratch:


You need an analogy?

Suppose, after a string of sexual attacks in your neighbourhood, you hear a rumour going around that a man living in your neighborhood is the sexual predator responsible for the attacks. Not just a sexual predator, but also an expert at grooming his victims without using a literal hairbrush (if you know what I mean). Being a smart and rational person, not one inclined to trust rumours and hearsays, you decided that the best way to find out the truth is to meet the man, talk to the man, and get to know him yourself. And voila! You are now madly in love with this man.

Maybe you should have trusted those rumours in the first place?


I don't need an analogy, no. I need you to tell me what the phenomenon is.


Why is it that, in the aftermath of a terrorist attack, instead of losing followers, Islam gains new followers?

David Wood explains how that happened. Immediately after a terrorist attack, there will be people criticising Islam as being responsible for the attack. Against this backlash of criticism, there is going to be other people (some of them Muslims, some of them Ben Afflecks) -in their eagerness to defend Muslims- deny that Islam is responsible for these violence. Amidst all this confusion, some people are going to study Islam for themselves, to find out whether Islam really promotes violence and terrorism. Who do they turn to, to find out the truth about Islam? Islamic preachers, texts and other pro-Islamic sources.

This is akin to a curious person going to an alleged predator to find out the truth, only to end up getting groomed by this predator. Psychologists have a term for this phenomenon. They call it Harley Quinn Syndrome.

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Re: Why All Muslims Benefit from Terrorism

#39  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 14, 2017 9:23 am

quas wrote:Why is it that, in the aftermath of a terrorist attack, instead of losing followers, Islam gains new followers?

David Wood explains how that happened. Immediately after a terrorist attack, there will be people criticising Islam as being responsible for the attack. Against this backlash of criticism, there is going to be other people (some of them Muslims, some of them Ben Afflecks) -in their eager to defend Muslims- deny that Islam is responsible for these violence. Amidst all this confusion, some people are going to study Islam for themselves, to find out whether Islam really promotes violence and terrorism. Who do they turn to, to find out the truth about Islam? Islamic preachers, texts and other pro-Islamic sources.

This is akin to a curious person going to an alleged predator to find out the truth, only to end up getting groomed by this predator. Psychologists have a term for this phenomenon. They call it Harley Quinn Syndrome.


Oh, look. Instead of producing an argument, you're repeating the unvetted assumptions of your so-called source and then adding some psychobabble about a new, unrelated (and equally-unvetted) 'phenomenon'.

I'm not sure what that should be called. Is 'doubling-down' the right term?

But let's suppose such 'grooming' happens when someone is vulnerable to the sort of argument made by people who suggest that questioning Islam is the same as censoring it. Those people are probably dumb enough to believe first one thing, and then the other, and they probably are not going to be arguing with you, let alone with me.

These are the same sort of people who would argue that if I'm questioning a xenophobic rant like Wood's, I'm at the same time defending Islam. Go figure.
Last edited by Cito di Pense on Jun 14, 2017 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why All Muslims Benefit from Terrorism

#40  Postby Rumraket » Jun 14, 2017 9:31 am

quas wrote:
Rachel Bronwyn wrote:Uh, how would leaving Islam prevent terrorists killing them? That would make them a target for additional reasons.


Which is why terrorism benefits the religion, and thus its adherents.

No. No. It might be true to say that terrorism benefits ISLAM, as in the persistence of the religion against adversary, apostasy and deconversion, but this is very very much different from saying it benefits muslims (the human beings who believe in the religion) in general.

In the same way that the insane laws, rules and extreme isolation of the North Korean state benefits the continued persistence of the North Korean state, without in any way benefitting the average North Korean citizen.

Stop saying all muslims is who benefits, when you really mean that it is the existence and persistence of the religion itself that is the beneficiary of terrorism. Those are two very different entities.
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