Why Ayaan Hirsi's Criticism of Islam Angers Western Liberals

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Re: Why Ayaan Hirsi's Criticism of Islam Angers Western Liberals

#41  Postby Rumraket » May 03, 2016 12:40 pm

Ven. Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Rachel Bronwyn wrote:I recall another dumb remark about how, if social assistance hadn't been available, the guy who killed Theo Van Gogh would have had a job and been at work and Van Gogh would be alive.


How is that a dumb remark? If that piece of shit was busy finding or holding down a job, then at the very least he'd have had less time to pursue his ambition to become the Netherlands's most violent film critic.

Maybe he'd have just not given a shit about finding and holding down a job regardless of the presence of a social safety net or not? You think him putting in 4 hours a day writing job-applications or working 8-10 hours a day in a socially liberal western democracy would seriously eradicate his ability to plan murders in his free time? The fuck...

Maybe we shouldn't eradicate social safety nets that help literally millions of disabled and disenfranchised people, all over the developed world, just because psychopathic islamofascist terrorists are trying to change our culture and way of life? Why would we? Wouldn't that be to let them have their way?
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Re: Why Ayaan Hirsi's Criticism of Islam Angers Western Liberals

#42  Postby Arjan Dirkse » May 03, 2016 2:15 pm

I really have to doubt that that is something Ayaan Hirsi Ali said. I think she is socially left wing and in favor of a strong social security network, she was part of a Dutch left wing party for a while. I assumed the only thing right wing about her is how much she hates radical Islam. I could be wrong about that, not really sure.
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Re: Why Ayaan Hirsi's Criticism of Islam Angers Western Liberals

#43  Postby Scot Dutchy » May 03, 2016 6:15 pm

Arjan Dirkse wrote:I really have to doubt that that is something Ayaan Hirsi Ali said. I think she is socially left wing and in favor of a strong social security network, she was part of a Dutch left wing party for a while. I assumed the only thing right wing about her is how much she hates radical Islam. I could be wrong about that, not really sure.


Which party? She was a MP for the VVD. That is definitely NOT left wing.
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Re: Why Ayaan Hirsi's Criticism of Islam Angers Western Liberals

#44  Postby Arjan Dirkse » May 03, 2016 7:00 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Arjan Dirkse wrote:I really have to doubt that that is something Ayaan Hirsi Ali said. I think she is socially left wing and in favor of a strong social security network, she was part of a Dutch left wing party for a while. I assumed the only thing right wing about her is how much she hates radical Islam. I could be wrong about that, not really sure.


Which party? She was a MP for the VVD. That is definitely NOT left wing.


Before that she was in PvdA though. I assumed she just switched to VVD because of the Islam issue which was unacceptable for PvdA.
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Re: Why Ayaan Hirsi's Criticism of Islam Angers Western Liberals

#45  Postby Ven. Kwan Tam Woo » May 04, 2016 6:44 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Ven. Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:She knows far more about Islam than Western liberals since she used to be a Muslim. Though that aside
they may still be reluctant to criticise it for fear of being labelled racist whereas she can do so without
being labelled one. Both of these reasons may be while she angers them. The first is justifiable but the
second not so because legitimate criticism of Islam does not equate to racism under any circumstances


Lefties are all about Big Government and wealth redistribution. Islam is all about Big Government and wealth redistribution - indeed Islam is about as 'Big Government' as you can get. Islam hates Christianity and the Jews, as does the Left. Couple this with the unacknowledged Christ Complex that lefties collectively have which causes them to equate criticism of Islam with racism against poor defenseless little "brown people", and it's no wonder that they fulminate with sanctimonious indignation when Hirsi dares to tell the truth about Islam.

A textbook examples of black and white thinking. :roll:


Very well Thomas, show me some examples of lefties who want smaller government, lower taxes, are pro-Jesus and pro-Israel, don't blame the White Male PatriarchyTM for most or all of the world's woes, are willing to be openly critical of Islam, and don't reflexively bleat "racist!" or "bigot!" every time they hear such criticism from others.

While you're at it, please enlighten us as to how Sharia Law is not "Big Government"; how the zakat, jizya, and the shallow repetitious admonitions in the Quran to 'give to the poor, orphaned and needy' don't indicate an Islamic preference for wealth redistribution; and how the numerous anti-Christian and anit-Jewish passages in the Quran and the Sunnah don't indicate a fundamental anti-Christian and anti-Jewish bias in the ideology of Islam.

Oh and I forgot another thing: both Islam and the Left hate it, absolutely hate it, when someone expresses an opinion which doesn't jive with their respective worldviews.
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Re: Why Ayaan Hirsi's Criticism of Islam Angers Western Liberals

#46  Postby Ven. Kwan Tam Woo » May 04, 2016 6:51 am

Arjan Dirkse wrote:I really have to doubt that that is something Ayaan Hirsi Ali said. I think she is socially left wing and in favor of a strong social security network, she was part of a Dutch left wing party for a while. I assumed the only thing right wing about her is how much she hates radical Islam. I could be wrong about that, not really sure.


No, you're right.
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Re: Why Ayaan Hirsi's Criticism of Islam Angers Western Liberals

#47  Postby Ven. Kwan Tam Woo » May 04, 2016 6:59 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Ven. Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Rachel Bronwyn wrote:I recall another dumb remark about how, if social assistance hadn't been available, the guy who killed Theo Van Gogh would have had a job and been at work and Van Gogh would be alive.


How is that a dumb remark? If that piece of shit was busy finding or holding down a job, then at the very least he'd have had less time to pursue his ambition to become the Netherlands's most violent film critic.

Really? How many premeditated murders have been postponed or inconvenienced to the point of impracticality, due to the murder having or seeking a job?


Well give me a means of peering into alternate universes and I might be able to tell you!

Or you could just read what I actually wrote: he would have had less time to fantasize and think about murdering someone over a film. What part of that statement seems unreasonable to you??
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Re: Why Ayaan Hirsi's Criticism of Islam Angers Western Liberals

#48  Postby Ven. Kwan Tam Woo » May 04, 2016 7:15 am

Rumraket wrote:
Within "lefties" you find people with socially progressive ideals who grudgingly accept that some times government regulations on business and industry in an otherwise largely capitalist society might be necessary, to on the other end where you find your die-hard Mao-communists.


In other words, you have those who are explicit about their desire to use the State to impose their ideals on the rest of society, and those who are so blinded by their smug arrogant assumption that they know what's best for everyone else that they can't even see the necessity and inevitability of the State having to impose their ideals on everyone else.

If you "grudgingly accept" that government regulation is "sometimes" necessary, then you are either a) a centrist, or b) a leftist who has very loose interpretations of "grudgingly" and "sometimes".

Neither of these groups could be said to represent "true lefties".


Certainly not the former, as I just noted.

And neither group hold any particular commonalities or alignments with "Islam", whatever the fuck you even mean by that.


Yes they do, I just specified them!

"Islam" (if one could even say there is such a thing, that would fully capture every viewpoint believed to be warranted by belief in something from the Qu'ran and Hadith) is so extremely diverse so as to almost defy categorization.


An ideology in which 90% of the adherents belong to one sect and another 9.99% of adherents belong to another very similar sect, neither of which has significantly changed for almost 1,400 years, is "extremely diverse"??

But yes, if you're going by the type of fundamentalist, literalist islamism advocated by Saudi-Arabian wahabi clerics, ISIS and the like, then yes it is very much a total "Big Government" theocracy. Of a type that nobody I recognize as "lefties" actually want or advocate.



In other words, if you're going to actually follow Islam, then you are going to be in favor of a Big Government theocracy. Whether or not the people you recognize as lefties want the particular strain of Big Government advocated by Islam is entirely beside the point.
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Re: Why Ayaan Hirsi's Criticism of Islam Angers Western Liberals

#49  Postby Ven. Kwan Tam Woo » May 04, 2016 7:22 am

Rumraket wrote:
Maybe we shouldn't eradicate social safety nets that help literally millions of disabled and disenfranchised people, all over the developed world, just because psychopathic islamofascist terrorists are trying to change our culture and way of life?


Maybe you shouldn't make ridiculous Straw Man characterizations of what others say.

Why would we? Wouldn't that be to let them have their way?


What, as opposed to providing them with generous welfare benefits so they can out-breed you and plot terrorist attacks against you on your tax dollar?
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Re: Why Ayaan Hirsi's Criticism of Islam Angers Western Liberals

#50  Postby Scot Dutchy » May 04, 2016 7:44 am

Arjan Dirkse wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Arjan Dirkse wrote:I really have to doubt that that is something Ayaan Hirsi Ali said. I think she is socially left wing and in favor of a strong social security network, she was part of a Dutch left wing party for a while. I assumed the only thing right wing about her is how much she hates radical Islam. I could be wrong about that, not really sure.


Which party? She was a MP for the VVD. That is definitely NOT left wing.


Before that she was in PvdA though. I assumed she just switched to VVD because of the Islam issue which was unacceptable for PvdA.


She was invited to the VVD to be put on the candidates list for the Second Chamber elections even though it was known she had lied about her escape from Somalia. She got her seat on preference votes.

She admitted to lying in her application for political asylum to enhance her chances to stay in the Netherlands. Hirsi Ali said that she omitted some information, for instance, that she and her family had lived for years outside the country. She said she returned to Somalia to try to rescue additional family members from refugee camps and then sought asylum. This issue raised doubts about other elements of her biography that lack documentary or circumstantial evidence.[53]

It is not known on what grounds she received political asylum. On the issue of her name, she applied under her grandfather's surname in her asylum application; she later said it was to escape retaliation by her clan.[54] In the later parliamentary investigation of Hirsi Ali's immigration, the Dutch law governing names was reviewed. An applicant may legally use a surname derived from any generation as far back as the grandparent. Therefore, Hirsi Ali's application, though against clan custom of names, was legal under Dutch law.


Her time in the Netherlands was very messy.

On 16 May Hirsi Ali resigned from Parliament after admitting that she had lied on her asylum application. She gave a press conference,[58] saying that, although she felt it was wrong to be granted asylum under false pretences, the facts had been publicly known since 2002, when they had been reported in the media and in one of her publications. She also restated her claim of seeking asylum to prevent a forced marriage, although some of her relatives had denied that on the Zembla programme. Her stated reason for resigning immediately was the news that the Minister would strip her of her Dutch citizenship.

After a long and emotional debate in the Dutch Parliament, all major parties supported a motion requesting the Minister to explore the possibility of special circumstances in Hirsi Ali's case. Although Verdonk remained convinced that the applicable law did not leave her room to consider such circumstances, she decided to accept the motion. During the debate, she said that Hirsi Ali still had Dutch citizenship during the period of reexamination. Apparently the "decision" she had announced had represented the current position of the Dutch government. Hirsi Ali at that point had six weeks to react to the report before any final decision about her citizenship was taken. Verdonk was strongly criticised for her actions in such a sensitive case.[59]


Reacting to news of Hirsi Ali's planned relocation to the US, former VVD leader Hans Wiegel stated that her departure "would not be a loss to the VVD and not be a loss to the House of Representatives".[60] He said that Hirsi Ali was a brave woman, but that her opinions were polarizing. Former parliamentary leader of the VVD, Jozias van Aartsen, said that it is "painful for Dutch society and politics that she is leaving the House of Representatives".[61] Another VVD MP, Bibi de Vries, said that if something were to happen to Hirsi Ali, some people in her party would have "blood on their hands."


Hans Wiegel was a very astute politician.

Here are the Wiki links in both Dutch and English as they actually compliment each other.

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali

I have a lot of doubts about her but that is just me.
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Re: Why Ayaan Hirsi's Criticism of Islam Angers Western Liberals

#51  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 04, 2016 8:31 am

Ven. Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Ven. Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:She knows far more about Islam than Western liberals since she used to be a Muslim. Though that aside
they may still be reluctant to criticise it for fear of being labelled racist whereas she can do so without
being labelled one. Both of these reasons may be while she angers them. The first is justifiable but the
second not so because legitimate criticism of Islam does not equate to racism under any circumstances


Lefties are all about Big Government and wealth redistribution. Islam is all about Big Government and wealth redistribution - indeed Islam is about as 'Big Government' as you can get. Islam hates Christianity and the Jews, as does the Left. Couple this with the unacknowledged Christ Complex that lefties collectively have which causes them to equate criticism of Islam with racism against poor defenseless little "brown people", and it's no wonder that they fulminate with sanctimonious indignation when Hirsi dares to tell the truth about Islam.

A textbook examples of black and white thinking. :roll:


Very well Thomas, show me some examples of lefties who want smaller government, lower taxes, are pro-Jesus and pro-Israel, don't blame the White Male PatriarchyTM for most or all of the world's woes, are willing to be openly critical of Islam, and don't reflexively bleat "racist!" or "bigot!" every time they hear such criticism from others.

First of all, you´re switching the burden of proof.
Secondly you're mindlessly restating your initial either/or dogmatism in your demand.
It isn't that people are either for a smaller government or complete state control.
It isn't that people are either pro-Israel or anti-Israel.
etc, etc.

Ven. Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
While you're at it, please enlighten us as to how Sharia Law is not "Big Government"; how the zakat, jizya, and the shallow repetitious admonitions in the Quran to 'give to the poor, orphaned and needy' don't indicate an Islamic preference for wealth redistribution; and how the numerous anti-Christian and anit-Jewish passages in the Quran and the Sunnah don't indicate a fundamental anti-Christian and anti-Jewish bias in the ideology of Islam.

Again, shifting the burden of proof.
Again, I do not have to prove claims I have not made.


Ven. Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Oh and I forgot another thing: both Islam and the Left hate it, absolutely hate it, when someone expresses an opinion which doesn't jive with their respective worldviews.

Uh-huh, that virually never happens with Christians and 'righties'. :coffee:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Why Ayaan Hirsi's Criticism of Islam Angers Western Liberals

#52  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 04, 2016 8:32 am

Ven. Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Ven. Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Rachel Bronwyn wrote:I recall another dumb remark about how, if social assistance hadn't been available, the guy who killed Theo Van Gogh would have had a job and been at work and Van Gogh would be alive.


How is that a dumb remark? If that piece of shit was busy finding or holding down a job, then at the very least he'd have had less time to pursue his ambition to become the Netherlands's most violent film critic.

Really? How many premeditated murders have been postponed or inconvenienced to the point of impracticality, due to the murder having or seeking a job?


Well give me a means of peering into alternate universes and I might be able to tell you!

So you admit that your initial claim is pure nonsense?

Ven. Kwan Tam Woo wrote:Or you could just read what I actually wrote: he would have had less time to fantasize and think about murdering someone over a film. What part of that statement seems unreasonable to you??

1. I fail to see how the over a film bit is relevant.
2. The part that having or searching for a job prevents you from thinking of, planning and then executing a murder.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Why Ayaan Hirsi's Criticism of Islam Angers Western Liberals

#53  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » May 04, 2016 8:43 am

As if being employed prevents people from getting pissed off and killing people.

Being a pissy fundamentalist prick who kills people doesn't involve unemployment. Unemployment doesn't promote fundamentalism or murder. Deprivation certainly promotes crime though and that's what you get when you don't provide public support to the unemployed.
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