Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

...in your home country?

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the mosques...

Moderators: Blip, DarthHelmet86

Would you support the forced closure of all mosques in your home country?

Yes
10
10%
No
84
88%
Undecided
2
2%
 
Total votes : 96

Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#601  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 15, 2015 9:14 am

SkyMutt wrote:[pedantic aside] The proper term is "sling your hook" according to the Oxford Dictionaries and other authorities. Hotten's Slang Dictionary of 1874 describes it as "a polite invitation to move-on." ;) Thus, it goes back to at least the 19th century, though is derivation is uncertain, and is still discussed by those of us who discuss such things. The "swing your hook" variation appears to come from Pink Floyd. [/pedantic aside] :shifty:



Fortunately, I don't have to also apologize for a typo as I originally wrote 'sling'. :) I've never heard of a 'swing' version.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 27321
Age: 43
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#602  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 15, 2015 9:20 am

Peter Brown wrote:well I gave my reasons, and Keep it real did too, but you seriously think anyone else would with the way the mob reaction hounded in not just this thread but stalked me into other different Islamic topics barking the same dislike in what I can only say was an attempt to 'railroad me out of town, tarred and feathered' seeing there is a like for old sayings?


Because you're making EXACTLY THE SAME CONTENTIONS across MULTIPLE THREADS.

You seem to want your contentions to remain unchallenged. That you're just allowed to assert them as fact without anyone responding. Not how this works, Peter. If your contentions are not robust enough to stand up to being challenged, either don't post them, or find somewhere where such contentions won't be challenged. But don't whinge that your contentions are shown wrong by lots of people here. The only 'mob' here is the number of people who point out the flaws in your claims.


Peter Brown wrote:Just because I think Islam is a very dangerous because it is a set of instructions of a successful warlord starting off with a few bandits and eventually conquering a small Empire. I can’t think of a worse book. It is like handing out how to make explosives to children and being shocked when a few blow themselves up.


Again, this is a strawman.

No one has, at any point, challenged you over your views of Islam.

As has been explained to you now a couple of dozen times, the challenges come when you try to paint all Muslims as violent extremists by reference to a tiny minority of Muslims engaging in extremist violence.

You are once again indulging in this strawman after you've been told to stop misrepresenting people, and even had the moderator tell you quite clearly to stop doing it. What are people supposed to say when you completely refuse to engage in what is being written to you? It's obvious you cannot respond because your position is fatally compromised by the challenges we've made to them.


Peter Brown wrote:Because of that honest view of mine, every post here has been attacked by the mob in nothing more than a witch hunt to make you feel proud you vilified the persons who would do something to stop the cycle, because you think they are bigots out of some warped believe allowing the Qur'an to continue its influence is a great idea because the Muslims who don't bear arms to enforce Islamic doctrine, only pray that Allah enforceds and forces you into submission to Sharia instead.


This is, once again, complete fucking nonsense.

This is NOT why your posts are being challenged, and there is neither a mob nor a witch hunt. Stop these stupid fucking games already.


Peter Brown wrote:And now the hounds will whine about Sharia being mentioned, not having a clue what it is, or how it ranges in scope and would remove every freedom they enjoy. No it is just their excuse to go mad in the mid day sun and savage the racist who dares mention the threat that wish to ignore.


So now we're hounds as well. Really, it's like you cannot process how your actions here are generating the controversy you whinge about.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 27321
Age: 43
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#603  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 15, 2015 9:24 am

Nicko wrote:
No one here is a Muslim. No one here is even pro-Islam. No one here denies that there is a threat posed by radical Islamist terrorism.

We just think the legislation you have advocated is fucking stupid.



You write this, Peter responds with 'fine', then proceeds to once again smear by fantastical association by suggesting yet again that we are supporting Islam.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 27321
Age: 43
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#604  Postby Sendraks » Jul 15, 2015 9:27 am

Peter Brown wrote:Because of that honest view of mine,


Just because a view is honest, doesn't mean that it has any worth beyond that. It has been pointed out to you repeatedly, why your views on Islam are deeply flawed and all you do is continue to ignore what is said. You're so deeply entrenched in your own position, anything which disturbs the sanctity of your echo chamber is discarded out of hand.
"One of the great tragedies of mankind is that morality has been hijacked by religion." - Arthur C Clarke

"'Science doesn't know everything' - Well science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it'd stop" - Dara O'Brian
User avatar
Sendraks
 
Name: D-Money Jr
Posts: 15196
Age: 103
Male

Country: England
Print view this post

Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#605  Postby Peter Brown » Jul 15, 2015 9:50 am

You heard the saying the only thing evil needs to flourish is for good men to do nothing.

yes, and I would like you to now tell me what my position is, I'd like to see if you actual know what it is or just think you know
User avatar
Peter Brown
 
Posts: 4288

Print view this post

Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#606  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jul 15, 2015 9:53 am

Peter Brown wrote:
We just think the legislation you have advocated is fucking stupid.


fine, you and the others have that opinion and asked why others disagreed.

well I gave my reasons, and Keep it real did too, but you seriously think anyone else would with the way the mob reaction hounded in not just this thread but stalked me into other different Islamic topics barking the same dislike in what I can only say was an attempt to 'railroad me out of town, tarred and feathered' seeing there is a like for old sayings?

That you cannot adress the points being made, rather than create this petulant persecution theory.
No-one is hounding you. People are merely refuting the baseless and often counterfactual claims you make.
And no-one is stalking you. If they were, they'd be attacking you in any thread you post which is not the case.

Peter Brown wrote:Just because I think Islam is a very dangerous because it is a set of instructions of a successful warlord starting off with a few bandits and eventually conquering a small Empire. I can’t think of a worse book. It is like handing out how to make explosives to children and being shocked when a few blow themselves up.

Yes you've made your view abundantly clear.
That doesn't excuse, however, the baseless, cherry-picked, counterfactual and hypocritical claims you use to support it.

Peter Brown wrote:Because of that honest view of mine, every post here has been attacked by the mob in nothing more than a witch hunt to make you feel proud you vilified the persons who would do something to stop the cycle, because you think they are bigots out of some warped believe allowing the Qur'an to continue its influence is a great idea because the Muslims who don't bear arms to enforce Islamic doctrine, only pray that Allah enforceds and forces you into submission to Sharia instead.

False, your posts are being criticised because they are based on blind assertions, false dichotomies, scapegoating and counterfactual claims.
People took even more umbridge with your posts because you proceeded to straw-man and lie about other member's posts and positions and started calling them names.
Those are the reasons you're posts are getting the responses they get.
Not because of some persecution conspiracy. It's not all about you Peter.

Peter Brown wrote:And now the hounds will whine about Sharia being mentioned, not having a clue what it is, or how it ranges in scope and would remove every freedom they enjoy. No it is just their excuse to go mad in the mid day sun and savage the racist who dares mention the threat that wish to ignore.

See, it's pre-emptive bullshitting like this which gets your posts eviscerated for the horseshit they are.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 30586
Age: 30
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#607  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jul 15, 2015 9:54 am

Peter Brown wrote:You heard the saying the only thing evil needs to flourish is for good men to do nothing.

And since no-one has advocated doing nothing, this is yet another red herring, deliberate straw-man and/or false dichotomy.

Peter Brown wrote:yes, and I would like you to now tell me what my position is, I'd like to see if you actual know what it is or just think you know

People have repeatedly done this, only for you to ignore it, dismiss it out of hand, or more commonly, obfuscate.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 30586
Age: 30
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#608  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 15, 2015 9:57 am

Peter Brown wrote:You heard the saying the only thing evil needs to flourish is for good men to do nothing.

yes, and I would like you to now tell me what my position is, I'd like to see if you actual know what it is or just think you know



I've capitulated it nearly a dozen times and you have never challenged my description of that position.

But this is a red herring. Everyone, including the mods, are telling you that you are misinterpreting what other people are writing - it really looks to everyone else like it's intentional.

So why won't you acknowledge those positions, Peter?

What's stopping you from acknowledging that, of the approx. 1.7 billion Muslims in the world, even the least conservative analysis posits 7% of them being violent extremists?

What's stopping you from agreeing with my oft-repeated point that the behavior of 7% cannot fairly be used as a example of the whole's behavior?

What's stopping you from addressing these head on and acknowledging them?

At this point, I think the most reasonable answer would be that you know they are both fair points, and that your previous and numerous claims that necessitated looking at Muslims as homogenous, that actively argued that all Muslims are homogenous, that applied negative stereotypes from the 7% onto the 93% is wrong.

But you won't back down on it. The reason why you won't back down onto it is because you've bought into something that's very unhealthy, but you've committed too much to it now to dispense with it, even if it does suddenly seem far less reasonable when the logic is challenged by people who aren't in that echo-chamber.

This is a rationalist site, Peter. Apply your rationality, please.



Edit: stray punctuation
Last edited by Spearthrower on Jul 15, 2015 10:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 27321
Age: 43
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#609  Postby Sendraks » Jul 15, 2015 9:59 am

Spearthrower wrote:I've capitulated it nearly a dozen times and you have never challenged my description of that position.


Of course he hasn't. Peter's entire argument relies on the strawman of our positions he has constructed. Unfortunately he's now so wedded to both his strawman of islam and strawman of our views on his strawman, that's hes utterly unable to engage in a discussion that connects with the reality of what is being said here.
"One of the great tragedies of mankind is that morality has been hijacked by religion." - Arthur C Clarke

"'Science doesn't know everything' - Well science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it'd stop" - Dara O'Brian
User avatar
Sendraks
 
Name: D-Money Jr
Posts: 15196
Age: 103
Male

Country: England
Print view this post

Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#610  Postby Alan B » Jul 15, 2015 10:02 am

It should be noted that Isa (Jesus), an Islamic 'Messenger of God', did not advocate places of worship but to pray in solitude away from others and out of public view.
So, according to this 'Messenger of God', mosques are redundant. The same, of course, applies to Christian churches...

But I would not close these places of worship. Keep them open, if only as places of architectural merit.
I have NO BELIEF in the existence of a God or gods. I do not have to offer evidence nor do I have to determine absence of evidence because I do not ASSERT that a God does or does not or gods do or do not exist.
User avatar
Alan B
 
Posts: 9800
Age: 83
Male

Country: UK (Birmingham)
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#611  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 15, 2015 10:06 am

Alan B wrote:It should be noted that Isa (Jesus), an Islamic 'Messenger of God', did not advocate places of worship but to pray in solitude away from others and out of public view.
So, according to this 'Messenger of God', mosques are redundant. The same, of course, applies to Christians...

But I would not close these places of worship. Keep them open, if only as places of architectural merit.



Similarly, I don't like pubs.

Some people who go to pubs get drunk and engage in all manner of violent and destructive behavior.

But I don't want all pubs shut down because of it - most people who use pubs don't do this, and I have no reason to deny them their liberty. That I don't like pubs does not make it reasonable for me to elevate my preferences over others' and deny them theirs.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 27321
Age: 43
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#612  Postby Peter Brown » Jul 15, 2015 10:28 am

no, my dislike of Islam is whats in the Qur'an backed by what happened over 1400 years of history. I don't see why you call that a strawman, or whatever the jingo is.

Did any of you ever watch the film The Wave, it is on YouTube or Wiki. or Blue eyes Brown eyes? Those two experiments are why I don't like the message of the Qur'an being told anywhere let alone to large crowds of primed to be influenced children and adults. Is that a strawman as well?

We got that far Right bunch called Britain First near central London, the Police are needed to stop the Muslims attacking them when they walk down the street handing out Jesus leaflets. So provocative to insult Islam with Christian flyers, but that is Islam at work in a majority Muslim street. Another straw man, or just incidents certain people don’t like to hear or tackle? Don't see any of that when Muslims hand out Dawah stuff in non Muslim majority streete.

Pub; they close the violent pubs you know, mine was closed because the landlord was waving a shotgun at the mods who invaded one night. so funny. They have bouncers on every town pubs door now; I wonder how Muslims would react to bouncers on Mosque doors? The Synagogues and schools have the Police to prevent the Jews being mugged. Can’t be right.

and locally the Conservatives are crusading against every new licence application.

I would say you have more chance of opening a Mosque, but the Muslims who tried opening yet another mega Mosque were blocked planning permission because there wasn’t the need for yet another one, and the smaller one nearer to me is desperate for donations because the Saudi’s didn’t back them like the mega Mosque Muslims.
User avatar
Peter Brown
 
Posts: 4288

Print view this post

Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#613  Postby Sendraks » Jul 15, 2015 10:40 am

Peter Brown wrote:no, my dislike of Islam is whats in the Qur'an backed by what happened over 1400 years of history.


We can say the same about the bible and what has happened over 2000 years of history.

Basically, you can condemn christanity on exactly the same basis that you condemn islam. So why choose one over the other?

We dislike both religions. We think they are both bad and problematic. However, we do not think that the problems associated with those religions extend to every person who follows those religions. You think that Islam is somehow extra-specially bad, but can't evidence why.

The problem is extremist behaviour and that's a problem no matter what religion it is associated with.

If you want to have a sensible discussion about the how and the why of Islamic religious extremism, then we can do that. The issues however, are way more complicated than just pointing at the Qu'ran and saying "muslims bad!"
"One of the great tragedies of mankind is that morality has been hijacked by religion." - Arthur C Clarke

"'Science doesn't know everything' - Well science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it'd stop" - Dara O'Brian
User avatar
Sendraks
 
Name: D-Money Jr
Posts: 15196
Age: 103
Male

Country: England
Print view this post

Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#614  Postby tuco » Jul 15, 2015 10:41 am

7% out of 1.7 bil are violent extremists? That is roughly 120 mil wow shall I be skeptical or just carry on? Carry on.
tuco
 
Posts: 15449

Print view this post

Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#615  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jul 15, 2015 10:43 am

Sendraks wrote:
Peter Brown wrote:no, my dislike of Islam is whats in the Qur'an backed by what happened over 1400 years of history.


We can say the same about the bible and what has happened over 2000 years of history.

Basically, you can condemn christanity on exactly the same basis that you condemn islam. So why choose one over the other?

We dislike both religions. We think they are both bad and problematic. However, we do not think that the problems associated with those religions extend to every person who follows those religions. You think that Islam is somehow extra-specially bad, but can't evidence why.

The problem is extremist behaviour and that's a problem no matter what religion it is associated with.

If you want to have a sensible discussion about the how and the why of Islamic religious extremism, then we can do that. The issues however, are way more complicated than just pointing at the Qu'ran and saying "muslims bad!"

:this:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 30586
Age: 30
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#616  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 15, 2015 10:57 am

tuco wrote:7% out of 1.7 bil are violent extremists? That is roughly 120 mil wow shall I be skeptical or just carry on? Carry on.


If you read back through, I've made it quite clear that the percentage I am using is from the least conservative estimates - basically, political pundits on right wing news channels. The more academic sources suggest less than 1%. It doesn't matter what the percentage cited is, though, as Peter has to ignore it to keep on the schtick that all Muslims are guilty for the actions of a tiny fraction of Muslims.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 27321
Age: 43
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#617  Postby Sendraks » Jul 15, 2015 10:58 am

Spearthrower wrote: It doesn't matter what the percentage cited is, though, as Peter has to ignore it to keep on the schtick that all Muslims are guilty for the actions of a tiny fraction of Muslims.


Or, if pressed, no-true-scotsman all those muslims who aren't part of that tiny fraction.
"One of the great tragedies of mankind is that morality has been hijacked by religion." - Arthur C Clarke

"'Science doesn't know everything' - Well science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it'd stop" - Dara O'Brian
User avatar
Sendraks
 
Name: D-Money Jr
Posts: 15196
Age: 103
Male

Country: England
Print view this post

Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#618  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 15, 2015 11:01 am

Sendraks wrote:
Spearthrower wrote: It doesn't matter what the percentage cited is, though, as Peter has to ignore it to keep on the schtick that all Muslims are guilty for the actions of a tiny fraction of Muslims.


Or, if pressed, no-true-scotsman all those muslims who aren't part of that tiny fraction.



Aye, which once again seems ironically lacking in awareness of emulating the rhetoric of extremists - that they are the True Muslims.

How very chewy and self-contradictory the guff Peter's been reading/watching must be.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 27321
Age: 43
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#619  Postby Peter Brown » Jul 15, 2015 11:02 am

Sendraks wrote:
Peter Brown wrote:no, my dislike of Islam is whats in the Qur'an backed by what happened over 1400 years of history.


We can say the same about the bible and what has happened over 2000 years of history.

Basically, you can condemn christanity on exactly the same basis that you condemn islam. So why choose one over the other?

We dislike both religions. We think they are both bad and problematic. However, we do not think that the problems associated with those religions extend to every person who follows those religions. You think that Islam is somehow extra-specially bad, but can't evidence why.

The problem is extremist behaviour and that's a problem no matter what religion it is associated with.

If you want to have a sensible discussion about the how and the why of Islamic religious extremism, then we can do that. The issues however, are way more complicated than just pointing at the Qu'ran and saying "muslims bad!"


and the only comment I made when Thomas started on his ranting about other religions was this is a subsection on Islam, take it elsewhere stop derailing the topic on mosques, which isn't a topic about churches or any other hall of woo.

If you can't talk about Islam, then ask questions, but don't get insulting and dismissive as some here have done when Islamic quotes are returned. Or it will be no wonder when off topic messages are ignored, they deserve to be ignored. My crime has been not ignoring more of them.

Basically, you can condemn christanity on exactly the same basis that you condemn islam. So why choose one over the other?


and because this is always the same sad tune I'll shout it again in bigger bold stand out type

IT IS A ISLAM SECTION NOT A ALL RELIGION SUB SECTION

But I basically disagree with the premice all religions are the same, that really is a false claim which I've seen used to excuse a religion doing bad shit with the smoke screen of all are the same.
Muslims and Christians hate gays, but Islam says kill from high hights, Moses says stone them, whatever and Christianity love the sinner not the sinner, aand that makes all three the same. Jog on.

And I know damn well the people who use this slight of debating hand tactic are hypocrits because in the next paragraph they say, not all Muslims are the same are they. Well when is a Muslim not a Muslim, a Christian not a Christian? When they don't follow the Muhammads example if a Muslim or Jesus if a Christian I'd say, so why isn't that acceptable as a discription and a straw man.

off to walk the dog
User avatar
Peter Brown
 
Posts: 4288

Print view this post

Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#620  Postby Peter Brown » Jul 15, 2015 11:04 am

Sendraks wrote:
Spearthrower wrote: It doesn't matter what the percentage cited is, though, as Peter has to ignore it to keep on the schtick that all Muslims are guilty for the actions of a tiny fraction of Muslims.


Or, if pressed, no-true-scotsman all those muslims who aren't part of that tiny fraction.


here we go again, the book say a fix statement, and you say its a no true scotsman

No wonder I think these views are bollocks
User avatar
Peter Brown
 
Posts: 4288

Print view this post

PreviousNext

Return to Islam

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest