Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

...in your home country?

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the mosques...

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Would you support the forced closure of all mosques in your home country?

Yes
10
10%
No
84
88%
Undecided
2
2%
 
Total votes : 96

Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#641  Postby Sendraks » Jul 15, 2015 1:01 pm

Peter Brown wrote:my logic once more


If your logic amounts to "people shouldn't hide behind religion as an excuse to commit crimes" then you'll find no argument from us. This is a perfectly rational statement.

The problem emerges when you make the claim that a) all mosques are involved in criminal activity or b) that all muslims support that activity. Neither a) and b) are evidenced in anyway as being true.

Peter Brown wrote:Why do some Muslims not follow the Qur'an as writen?


Many muslims do not follow the Qu'ran as written, because it is hugely open to interpretation.
Many muslims do not follow the Qu'ran as written, for the same reasons as many Christians do not follow the bible as written.
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#642  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 15, 2015 1:02 pm

Peter Brown wrote:my logic once more


*cough cough*


Peter Brown wrote:If the Qur'an is a book of currently criminal ideas in some countries then people who practice those criminal activites should face the judge.


But the Quran is not a book of currently criminal ideas in some countries, and most specifically 'ideas' are not punishable in any society which is not a totalitarian dictatorship.


Peter Brown wrote:If a criminal organisation meet in a hall to promote criminal ventures, then they should be denied access to that hall.


Islam is not a criminal organistion, it's a religion, so that's not a logical reason for closing mosques.


Peter Brown wrote:Calling your criminal organisation a religion, or hiding behind hangalongs is not nor ever should be an excuse to evade justice if you break the law or promote breaking the law of the land.


Your contention is pure fantasy - only a few crackpots on the internet might agree with you that Islam is not a religion. Why should society bow to your ridiculous and illogical definitions?


Peter Brown wrote:People who support criminal organisations and don't wish them to face the judge for breaking the law are as guilty as the criminal; they are aiding and abetting crimes o take place.


And yet again, the at least 93% of Muslims who are not committing any criminal activity should not be considered guilty by attributing the actions of a guilty few onto them.


Peter Brown wrote:Calling someone a criminal if they invite others to break the law with them is not being a bigit or a strawman or a true scotsman.


No, but pretending that all Muslims are criminals via specious logic is bigotry.


Peter Brown wrote:Stating what the religion tells the follower because it is a book is not a true Scotsman fallacy, it is just a plain simple reality that the book they believe is from Allah is telling them to do crimes. Pretending that it wasn’t is aiding and abetting the crimes to carry on.


And as has been pointed out to you so many times now even my table understands, the same kinds of passages can be found in other holy texts, yet we don't assume that all Jews or Christians are guilty by default, we only criminalize the actions of people who engage in criminal activity.


Peter Brown wrote:Why do some Muslims not follow the Qur'an as writen?


Because people interpret words differently, that's the same with all religions throughout history. Regardless, when 93% of Muslims don't interpret the book in the way you say Muslims should, the rational position is to assume that it's you who's wrong about the necessity of that interpretation.


Peter Brown wrote:Maybe they fear the punishment of man more than that of Allah, the whole bedrock of Islam is the fear of Allah has to be greater than the fear of men. Yep that's in there too.


Or maybe they're just normal people like you and I, and worry more about feeding their families, getting a promotion, finding time to exercise and relax, whether what they're eating is healthy, what to watch on TV etc.... than engaging in criminal activities. Maybe they also think that the 1% (7% for nutjobs) actions are totally wrong, not just from their own culture and upbringing, but also because they think their interpretation of the holy texts specifies that this is wrong.

The problem is that we all know your position - you don't need to repeat it, we've seen it and addressed it already.

What you need to be doing is addressing the challenges to your contentions.
Last edited by Spearthrower on Jul 15, 2015 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#643  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 15, 2015 1:04 pm

Peter Brown wrote:
Nicko wrote:
Sendraks wrote:This is not persuasive.


Particularly since Peter has provided no logical connection between his assertions regarding the nature of Islam and the advisability of banning all mosques.


I said it before but just for you it was the question had only yes or no as a responce. Ideally I'd just get rid of the ones which really do pump out the hate in the Quran


So you acknowledge that not ALL of them do?

Do you also acknowledge that not ALL Muslims engage in religiously motivated extremist violence?
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#644  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 15, 2015 1:08 pm

Here you go Peter:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Close-al ... 6935248628

It's a group where none of your absurd contentions or erroneous assertions will be challenged - they'll be positively lapped up. You can say anything you want about Muslims, and no one will dispute it there.

Of course, you could instead consider whether your arguments do actually hold up outside of an echo-chamber.
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#645  Postby Peter Brown » Jul 15, 2015 1:10 pm

No idea, its tip of the iceburg stuff. It is like how many Muslims support Anjem Choudrey marches and his band of nutters? How many think like Choudrey, talk like Choudrey but never met Choudrey?

How many people on your street will break some law this week? How many because god told them to?

It is a madness you can only see when its too late
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#646  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jul 15, 2015 1:10 pm

Peter Brown wrote:my logic once more

Where you're wrong, once more:

Peter Brown wrote:If the Qur'an is a book of currently criminal ideas in some countries then people who practice those criminal activites should face the judge.

The Qu'ran has no single objective interpetation.
The Qu'ran has plenty of verses that promote lawful behaviour.
The bible and Torah contain criminal ideas as well.
Any person who violates the law, for whatever reason, should face justice. People commit crimes, not religions and virtually all religions contain verses that promote unlawful behaviour. Given that Islam and is based on Christianity and both in turn on Judaism they have many similar unlawful notions in their religions.

Peter Brown wrote:If a criminal organisation meet in a hall to promote criminal ventures, then they should be denied access to that hall.

This includes churches and synagogues I presume?
And only those buildings where such behaviour is promoted and not, as you voted, all buildings of a particular diverse group?

Peter Brown wrote:Calling your criminal organisation a religion, or hiding behind hangalongs is not nor ever should be an excuse to evade justice if you break the law or promote breaking the law of the land.

Agreed, but again this does not apply solely to Islam and mosques.

Peter Brown wrote:People who support criminal organisations and don't wish them to face the judge for breaking the law are as guilty as the criminal; they are aiding and abetting crimes o take place.

Again agreed and again, not limited to Islam and mosques. Nor does it excuse the closing of all mosques.

Peter Brown wrote:Calling someone a criminal if they invite others to break the law with them is not being a bigit or a strawman or a true scotsman.

Hence why nobody made such an asinine claim.
It's truly fucking desperate of you to keep rergitating these ludicrous straw-men instead of dealing with what people actually post.

Peter Brown wrote:Stating what the religion tells the follower because it is a book is not a true Scotsman fallacy,

It is because there is no One True Islam/Qu'ran interpetation TM.
The more you keep pretending otherwise, the more you demonstrate your position is based on prejudice and bigotry.
Not to mention hypocricy because you fail to apply the same standard to other religions.

Peter Brown wrote: it is just a plain simple reality that the book they believe is from Allah is telling them to do crimes. Pretending that it wasn’t is aiding and abetting the crimes to carry on.

Like you repeated ignoring, white-washing apologetics of criminal behaviour promoted in the bible and Torah you mean? :naughty:

Peter Brown wrote:Why do some Muslims not follow the Qur'an as writen? Maybe they fear the punishment of man more than that of Allah, the whole bedrock of Islam is the fear of Allah has to be greater than the fear of men. Yep that's in there too.

:banghead:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#647  Postby Sendraks » Jul 15, 2015 1:13 pm

Peter Brown wrote:No idea, its tip of the iceburg stuff.


This is your bias talking Peter. This is not a rational basis on which to make an argument.
I really do believe you can do better.
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#648  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 15, 2015 1:14 pm

Peter Brown wrote:No idea, its tip of the iceburg stuff.


No, that's an evasion.

I am asking you how many Muslims FACTUALLY engage in extremist violence. That is, there are hard facts about this, not the produce of your belly-button.

You do have an idea as I've cited various sources for it - unless, of course, you ignored the evidence which contradicts your claims.


Peter Brown wrote:It is like how many Muslims support Anjem Choudrey marches and his band of nutters?


Red herring.


Peter Brown wrote:How many think like Choudrey, talk like Choudrey but never met Choudrey?


Red herring.


Peter Brown wrote:How many people on your street will break some law this week? How many because god told them to?


The fact that a significant percentage of them will break some law this week not because god told them to shows that it's not just god-believers who commit crimes.

Which, while indicative of the same failure of reasoning you've applied to Muslims, is still a red herring.


Peter Brown wrote:It is a madness you can only see when its too late


You don't judge and penalize people before they commit a crime.
Last edited by Spearthrower on Jul 15, 2015 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#649  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jul 15, 2015 1:14 pm

Peter Brown wrote:No idea, its tip of the iceburg stuff. It is like how many Muslims support Anjem Choudrey marches and his band of nutters? How many think like Choudrey, talk like Choudrey but never met Choudrey?

How many people on your street will break some law this week? How many because god told them to?

It is a madness you can only see when its too late

Maybe you should stop JAQing of and start dealing with facts rather than fear induced prejudice.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#650  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 15, 2015 1:15 pm

Do you acknowledge that not ALL Muslims engage in religiously motivated extremist violence, Peter?
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#651  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 15, 2015 1:18 pm

Trying to find websites that Peter might enjoy posting his fact-free plunges into fantasy, I amusingly came across this:

http://www.loonwatch.com/

About

Loonwatch.com is a blogzine run by a motley group of hate-allergic bloggers to monitor and expose the web’s plethora of anti-Muslim loons, wackos, and conspiracy theorists.

While we find the sheer stupidity and outrageousness of the loons to be a source of invaluable comedy, we also recognize the seriousness of the danger they represent as dedicated hatemongers. And so, while our style reflects our bemusement, our content is fact checked and our sources well vetted making sure loonwatch.com is a reliable educational – if entertaining – resource on the rambunctious underworld of Muslim-bashing.


Seems like the phenomenon has grown sufficiently to warrant a counter-culture.
Last edited by Spearthrower on Jul 15, 2015 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#652  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jul 15, 2015 1:19 pm

He's sounding remarkably similar to Geert Wilders the Dutch anti-Muslim liberal party leader.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#653  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jul 15, 2015 1:21 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:He's sounding remarkably similar to Geert Wilders the Dutch anti-Muslim liberal party leader.


Liberal Party?

I dont think Wilders knows where he stands these days.
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#654  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 15, 2015 1:22 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:He's sounding remarkably similar to Geert Wilders the Dutch anti-Muslim liberal party leader.



My guess is that Peter's been watching an awful lot of videos, and partaking in online communities which are about this single agenda. The sound bites are well learned, but there's nothing underneath the surface - all regurgitated from hate-groups.
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#655  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jul 15, 2015 1:23 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:He's sounding remarkably similar to Geert Wilders the Dutch anti-Muslim liberal party leader.


Liberal Party?

I dont think Wilders knows where he stands these days.

I don't know, haven't really kept up with his stances lately. Last election, most of his proposals were quite liberal, the exceptions being of course his anti-Islam and anti-immigration issues.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#656  Postby Sendraks » Jul 15, 2015 1:25 pm

Spearthrower wrote:The sound bites are well learned, but there's nothing underneath the surface - all regurgitated from hate-groups.


And the mode of responding to the points being made is much the same as well. Accuse any critics of holding a strawman position, use that to justify your arguments. Its like being critical of Israel's policy on Palestine and automatically having someone accuse you of being an anti-Semite.
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#657  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jul 15, 2015 1:26 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:He's sounding remarkably similar to Geert Wilders the Dutch anti-Muslim liberal party leader.


Liberal Party?

I dont think Wilders knows where he stands these days.

I don't know, haven't really kept up with his stances lately. Last election, most of his proposals were quite liberal, the exceptions being of course his anti-Islam and anti-immigration issues.


Last election yes but now more like the political wilderness.
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#658  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 15, 2015 1:30 pm

Sendraks wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:The sound bites are well learned, but there's nothing underneath the surface - all regurgitated from hate-groups.


And the mode of responding to the points being made is much the same as well. Accuse any critics of holding a strawman position, use that to justify your arguments. Its like being critical of Israel's policy on Palestine and automatically having someone accuse you of being an anti-Semite.



Some people - usually demagogues - will distort your position no matter what you say. One particular YT 'discussion' I have is with someone who accuses me of being a 'kike' because, really bizarrely, I state that I abhor the violence, inhumane treatment, and shocking repression the state of Israel employs on Palestinians.

Some people can't even listen to what you say - they've already practiced their responses to a completely different position, so they don't want to waste time coming up with a new argument to address yours, easier just to keep rehearsing the precanned one.
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#659  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jul 15, 2015 1:32 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
Sendraks wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:The sound bites are well learned, but there's nothing underneath the surface - all regurgitated from hate-groups.


And the mode of responding to the points being made is much the same as well. Accuse any critics of holding a strawman position, use that to justify your arguments. Its like being critical of Israel's policy on Palestine and automatically having someone accuse you of being an anti-Semite.



Some people - usually demagogues - will distort your position no matter what you say. One particular YT 'discussion' I have is with someone who accuses me of being a 'kike' because, really bizarrely, I state that I abhor the violence, inhumane treatment, and shocking repression the state of Israel employs on Palestinians.

Some people can't even listen to what you say - they've already practiced their responses to a completely different position, so they don't want to waste time coming up with a new argument to address yours, easier just to keep rehearsing the precanned one.

The bolded bit is virtually guaranteed to happen, even here, whenever the situation in Israel/Palestine is being discussed.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#660  Postby NineBerry » Jul 15, 2015 1:44 pm

This thread is nearly as boring and repetitive as the Quran.
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