Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

...in your home country?

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the mosques...

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Would you support the forced closure of all mosques in your home country?

Yes
10
10%
No
84
88%
Undecided
2
2%
 
Total votes : 96

Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#661  Postby Peter Brown » Jul 15, 2015 1:45 pm

Sendraks wrote:
Peter Brown wrote:my logic once more


If your logic amounts to "people shouldn't hide behind religion as an excuse to commit crimes" then you'll find no argument from us. This is a perfectly rational statement.

good, its was my view on Islam before this stupid yes no question had me take one more step to answer it

The problem emerges when you make the claim that a) all mosques are involved in criminal activity or b) that all muslims support that activity. Neither a) and b) are evidenced in anyway as being true.

The problem is there are just too many things in the Qur'an that are criminal now, let alone the Hadith


Peter Brown wrote:Why do some Muslims not follow the Qur'an as writen?


Many muslims do not follow the Qu'ran as written, because it is hugely open to interpretation.


Even teaching that implementing Sharia (Allah and the messenger’s laws) is the goal of Allah and the messenger is preaching the overthrowing of basic democracy in some form. In England we had the war that ended up with the principle of Magna Charta, nobody is above the laws of the land.

Now I might not always agree with individual laws, but I do agree that even with its faults, the principle of everyone being equal before the law is good place to start and that we can vote and improve (or regress the laws) is dynamic but mostly good for civilisation.

My contention is, and I’m sure you 100% agree again, Sharia is anti democratic, it is theocracy, it is whatever the Qur’an tells you Sharia is. They had the war on who decides what was Sharia or not 1300 to 1200 years ago, the priest won. Religion is greater than secularism in Islam. Only time it hasn’t been was when new secular Caliphs stamped down on the constant infighting of Muslims, but even secular Caliphs die and what I cheekily call born again Muslims bring back good ol’ Muhammad the Arab values as read from the Qur’an.


Now in a Muslim country they can vote in Sharia, vote once and lose that vote to change forever more. Only was to get rid of Sharia is a bloody revolution to impose secular values.

And I got to ask can a Muslim really be a Muslim if the do not follow what Allah and the messengers instructions on how to be a Muslim?



Many muslims do not follow the Qu'ran as written, for the same reasons as many Christians do not follow the bible as written.


and I say it is more because they are forbiden to by non Muslim rules to follow the Quran, and bloody good thing too.
You need to go to a Muslim nation to see how Sharia in action, Sharia unchained or in chains

It is the same with Jews not killing disobedient children, they wisely fear going to prison if they do. But there must be more to it than just that, there is Israel after all and all of Moses laws could be in force in Israel surely?

Well there must have been a change of opinion, not just in the Jews but the people who minister Jews, the rabbi. I know some rules are impossible now to follow, the Jews have no Holy of Holy so they can’t sacrifice goats or even a pigeon, they have no High priest anymore so they no longer have the magic words to used gods telephone. The Romans did one hell of a job on the religion when the Jews rebelled against the Empire, and the Christian Emperor Justinina did one hell of a job on them and the Samaritan too decades later.

Being a Jew now must be like being a Druid? Like what do druids do? Dunno Ken, let’s make it up as we go along at Stonehenge

As for Christian, whatever, they were forced not to be Christians too if you want a simple reason. Unless you are living in America????
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#662  Postby Sendraks » Jul 15, 2015 1:56 pm

Peter Brown wrote:and I say it is more because they are forbiden to by non Muslim rules to follow the Quran, and bloody good thing too.
You need to go to a Muslim nation to see how Sharia in action, Sharia unchained or in chains[/quite]

sharia law =/= qu'ran

Peter Brown wrote:Sharia is anti democratic, it is theocracy, it is whatever the Qur’an tells you Sharia is


No. Sharia law is a specific interpretation of the Qu'ran. Sharia law uses the Qu'ran as a justification that whatever laws it passes. It tells people to interpret the Qu'ran a specific way.

Also - whilst a nation may have sharia law, that doesn't mean everyone who lives there is happy living under that regime. The vast majority of muslims outside of those nations, have expressed no interest in establishing sharia law where they live now, because they've moved to get away from such an oppressive regime.

In a tiny minority of places, we see a minority trying to encourage the local muslim populace to enact sharia law, but it has very little traction and very little success.

Why?
Because the muslims don't want it.
Because it doesn't fit with their interpretation of Islam.

Now, like you I am all for zero tolerance on anyone trying to establish sharia law here in the UK. I'm happy for this to quashed under the heavy jackboots of secular intolerance for woo based bullshit and the fact that we have laws developed on a secular basis (mostly). I'd say this for anyone trying to establish a "pro-Christian zone" or some sort of Jewish law area as well. Its all bullshit and shouldn't be tolerated.

I would also agree with you that, Sharia law is particularly nasty at present compared to the extremist views of other faiths. It wasn't always thus, but right here and now it is and in the areas it manifests, it needs to be stopped.
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#663  Postby Peter Brown » Jul 15, 2015 1:57 pm

Sendraks wrote:
Peter Brown wrote:No idea, its tip of the iceburg stuff.


This is your bias talking Peter. This is not a rational basis on which to make an argument.
I really do believe you can do better.


nobody can do better than that!!! :doh:
It is a problem
It is big
It is getting bigger
and eventually it will affect you in someway if it hasn't already.
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#664  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jul 15, 2015 2:00 pm

Peter Brown wrote:
Sendraks wrote:

The problem emerges when you make the claim that a) all mosques are involved in criminal activity or b) that all muslims support that activity. Neither a) and b) are evidenced in anyway as being true.


The problem is there are just too many things in the Qur'an that are criminal now, let alone the Hadith

As there are in the bible and Torah.


Peter Brown wrote:
Sendraks wrote:
Many muslims do not follow the Qu'ran as written, because it is hugely open to interpretation.


Even teaching that implementing Sharia (Allah and the messenger’s laws) is the goal of Allah and the messenger is preaching the overthrowing of basic democracy in some form. In England we had the war that ended up with the principle of Magna Charta, nobody is above the laws of the land.

And the Reformed party in the Netherlands wants to replace the constitution with the bible and Ten Commandments.
However, most Dutch people, including Christians are opposed to this.
Since you've failed to present any evidence that anymore than a small minority of the Brittish muslims are in favor of Sharia law, this is yet more baseless fearmongering.

Peter Brown wrote:Now I might not always agree with individual laws, but I do agree that even with its faults, the principle of everyone being equal before the law is good place to start and that we can vote and improve (or regress the laws) is dynamic but mostly good for civilisation.

My contention is, and I’m sure you 100% agree again, Sharia is anti democratic, it is theocracy, it is whatever the Qur’an tells you Sharia is. They had the war on who decides what was Sharia or not 1300 to 1200 years ago, the priest won.

At that moment in time.
Since then there are different interpetation of what Sharia is and to whom it should apply.

Peter Brown wrote:Religion is greater than secularism in Islam.

No shit. That's because it is a fucking religion.
In any religion, religion is greater than secularism.

Peter Brown wrote: Only time it hasn’t been was when new secular Caliphs stamped down on the constant infighting of Muslims, but even secular Caliphs die and what I cheekily call born again Muslims bring back good ol’ Muhammad the Arab values as read from the Qur’an.

Can you stop devolving into this utter non-sequitur red herrings?

Peter Brown wrote:
Now in a Muslim country they can vote in Sharia, vote once and lose that vote to change forever more. Only was to get rid of Sharia is a bloody revolution to impose secular values.

Oh look, you've managed to present yet more shit as data.
The largest Muslim country in the world is Indonesia, which does not have Sharia law.
Nor does India, Malaysia and plenty of other Muslims countries.


Peter Brown wrote: And I got to ask can a Muslim really be a Muslim if the do not follow what Allah and the messengers instructions on how to be a Muslim?

You get to demonstrate again that you're not interested in an honest, rational debate.
It's been explained to you, ad-nauseam that there is no One True Islam TM.

Peter Brown wrote:
Sendraks wrote:
Many muslims do not follow the Qu'ran as written, for the same reasons as many Christians do not follow the bible as written.


and I say it is more because they are forbiden to by non Muslim rules to follow the Quran, and bloody good thing too.

What you say is counterfactual bullshit.

Peter Brown wrote:You need to go to a Muslim nation to see how Sharia in action, Sharia unchained or in chains

Already eviscarated this nonsense.

Peter Brown wrote:It is the same with Jews not killing disobedient children, they wisely fear going to prison if they do.

Image



Peter Brown wrote: But there must be more to it than just that, there is Israel after all and all of Moses laws could be in force in Israel surely?

Well there must have been a change of opinion, not just in the Jews but the people who minister Jews, the rabbi. I know some rules are impossible now to follow, the Jews have no Holy of Holy so they can’t sacrifice goats or even a pigeon, they have no High priest anymore so they no longer have the magic words to used gods telephone. The Romans did one hell of a job on the religion when the Jews rebelled against the Empire, and the Christian Emperor Justinina did one hell of a job on them and the Samaritan too decades later.

Oh look, more obfuscation through red-herrings.


Peter Brown wrote:As for Christian, whatever, they were forced not to be Christians too if you want a simple reason. Unless you are living in America????

:sigh:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#665  Postby Sendraks » Jul 15, 2015 2:01 pm

Peter Brown wrote:
nobody can do better than that!!! :doh:
It is a problem
It is big
It is getting bigger
and eventually it will affect you in someway if it hasn't already.


You're saying so, doesn't make it so Peter. It really doesn't.
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#666  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 15, 2015 2:02 pm

You need to go to a Muslim nation to see how Sharia in action


Have you even been to a Muslim nation, Peter?
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#667  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 15, 2015 2:02 pm

Peter Brown wrote:
Sendraks wrote:
Peter Brown wrote:No idea, its tip of the iceburg stuff.


This is your bias talking Peter. This is not a rational basis on which to make an argument.
I really do believe you can do better.


nobody can do better than that!!! :doh:
It is a problem
It is big
It is getting bigger
and eventually it will affect you in someway if it hasn't already.




The MOOSLIMS are COMING!!!1!
Last edited by Spearthrower on Jul 15, 2015 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#668  Postby Sendraks » Jul 15, 2015 2:03 pm

Spearthrower wrote:The MOOSLIMS are COMING!


Are they relatives of the Moomins?
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#669  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 15, 2015 2:04 pm

Sendraks wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:The MOOSLIMS are COMING!


Are they relatives of the Moomins?



They're both a fictional narrative, but I'm lead to believe via very dependable sources, that Muslims are less cuddly.
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#670  Postby Peter Brown » Jul 15, 2015 2:05 pm

well that is also supporting my point, Sharia isn't a great system to live under.

but it doesn't stop that being demanded for in non Muslim nations does it? This group wasn't set up because every Muslim in the UK loves British laws. It was set up because a large number of Muslims demanded that to them Sharia trumped British law and the funding that they got from abroad funded political change so Sharia courts were allowed. They have now a non binding comprimise, the fear is the demands for Sharia will end up as legally binding in the UK nd screw all the people who left that sort of imprisonment.

You prove to me that won't happen if you demand proof this isn't the way of Islam, the way of the theocrate

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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#671  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jul 15, 2015 2:07 pm

Peter Brown wrote:well that is also supporting my point, Sharia isn't a great system to live under.

Indeed, which is why most Muslims oppose it.

Peter Brown wrote:but it doesn't stop that being demanded for in non Muslim nations does it?

Nope, just like people won't stop asking for a Christian theocracy.

Peter Brown wrote:This group wasn't set up because every Muslim in the UK loves British laws. It was set up because a large number of Muslims

Citations?


Peter Brown wrote:demanded that to them Sharia trumped British law and the funding that they got from abroad funded political change so Sharia courts were allowed. They have now a non binding comprimise, the fear is the demands for Sharia will end up as legally binding in the UK nd screw all the people who left that sort of imprisonment.

You prove to me that won't happen if you demand proof this isn't the way of Islam, the way of the theocrate

http://www.onelawforall.org.uk/

Shifting of the burden of proof detected.
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#672  Postby Arjan Dirkse » Jul 15, 2015 2:09 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
The largest Muslim country in the world is Indonesia, which does not have Sharia law.
Nor does India, Malaysia and plenty of other Muslims countries.


Unfortunately, Aceh in Indonesia is ruled by a pretty severe interpretation of sharia. And according to this pew poll, 72 % of Indonesian Muslims support making sharia the official law for the whole country.

And some form of sharia also functions in Malaysia, although it only pertains to Muslims, not the non -Muslim residents.
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#673  Postby Peter Brown » Jul 15, 2015 2:10 pm

Sendraks wrote:
Peter Brown wrote:
nobody can do better than that!!! :doh:
It is a problem
It is big
It is getting bigger
and eventually it will affect you in someway if it hasn't already.


You're saying so, doesn't make it so Peter. It really doesn't.


except when it is. how many died to Islam today I wonder?
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#674  Postby Nicko » Jul 15, 2015 2:14 pm

Peter Brown wrote:my logic once more


Looks like I get to explain why it's not logic once more.

Peter Brown wrote:If the Qur'an is a book of currently criminal ideas in some countries then people who practice those criminal activites should face the judge.


Straight from the start, you dive headlong into the piss-filled swimming pool of deceit. Again.

Note the bolded. Ideas are not actions. Yet you conflate the two. Immediately.

There are plenty of ideas in the Bible that would be illegal if acted out. Try stoning your child to death for disobedience - not merely permitted, but required of the faithful by the OT - and see what the cops have to say about that.

As a society, we do not punish people for having bad ideas. We punish people for doing bad things.

There is no one in this thread saying that Muslims who break the law should not be prosecuted. No. One.

What people are saying is that a group should not be collectively punished for the actions of a minority of its members. Because to do so would be corrosive to the principles of civilised justice - and thereby be destructive of the secular, democratic values that make Western society worth defending in the first place - while strengthening the extremist camp that you falsely believe yourself to be opposing.

Peter Brown wrote:If a criminal organisation meet in a hall to promote criminal ventures, then they should be denied access to that hall.


Of course. If an Al Qaeda cell or some ISIS recruiters want to hold public meetings, that sounds like the perfect time to arrest some criminals. Go for it.

In order for your "logic" to work here, however, you need to actually demonstrate that Muslims as a whole are a "criminal group". Something you have so far failed to do, rendering this point of yours a non sequitur. By which I mean, this point - from which all your other points flow - is logically unconnected to your first point.

Which was - as I pointed out - bullshit anyway.

Peter Brown wrote:Calling your criminal organisation a religion, or hiding behind hangalongs is not nor ever should be an excuse to evade justice if you break the law or promote breaking the law of the land.


True. But see my response above. There are actual legal standards that apply in order to declare a group of people a "criminal organisation". Being an organisation for starters, which - as everyone in this thread who's not utterly ignorant is already aware - Islam is not.

Peter Brown wrote:People who support criminal organisations and don't wish them to face the judge for breaking the law are as guilty as the criminal; they are aiding and abetting crimes o take place.


Again with the conflation of ideas and actions.

No, someone who agrees with a criminal and hopes they don't get punished is not "aiding and abetting". This is due to the technicality that for someone to be guilty of "aiding and abetting" they need to actually aid and abet. Not just think thoughts, or speak words. Because that would be fucking magic.

And again with the completely unsupported assertion that Islam as a whole qualifies as a criminal organisation.

Peter Brown wrote:Calling someone a criminal if they invite others to break the law with them is not being a bigit or a strawman or a true scotsman.


No, such problems do however start to creep in when one accuses all members of a group of committing such acts when only a minority do. Which is what you've done.

Peter Brown wrote:Stating what the religion tells the follower because it is a book is not a true Scotsman fallacy, it is just a plain simple reality that the book they believe is from Allah is telling them to do crimes.


Just as the Bible requires believers to perform actions that would be crimes if Christians actually did them.

Peter Brown wrote:Pretending that it wasn’t is aiding and abetting the crimes to carry on.


Again. You are clearly labouring under a fundamental misapprehension of what "aiding and abetting" means. Educate yourself.

Peter Brown wrote:Why do some Muslims not follow the Qur'an as writen? Maybe they fear the punishment of man more than that of Allah, the whole bedrock of Islam is the fear of Allah has to be greater than the fear of men.


Same reason that Christians generally don't stone people to death for collecting sticks on the Sabbath.

Most of them aren't psychopaths. They don't want to do psychopathic things. They therefore interpret their religion in a way that allows them to not behave like psychopaths.

Why is this such a difficult concept for you to wrap your brain around?
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#675  Postby Peter Brown » Jul 15, 2015 2:16 pm

Arjan Dirkse wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
The largest Muslim country in the world is Indonesia, which does not have Sharia law.
Nor does India, Malaysia and plenty of other Muslims countries.


Unfortunately, Aceh in Indonesia is ruled by a pretty severe interpretation of sharia. And according to this pew poll, 72 % of Indonesian Muslims support making sharia the official law for the whole country.

And some form of sharia also functions in Malaysia, although it only pertains to Muslims, not the non -Muslim residents.


And 72% of people wanting to bring Sharia is a good thing??? What about the 28% the poor sods who don’t want to be a Muslim?

Except when Muslims demand it apples to Christians which happened in Malaysia recently over Muslims converting to Christianity.

Islam is intolerant of every other belief system because... it says that is the way to treat other religious beliefs in the Qur'an

and no true Muslim follows the Qur'an do they :)
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#676  Postby Arjan Dirkse » Jul 15, 2015 2:20 pm

Peter Brown wrote:
Arjan Dirkse wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
The largest Muslim country in the world is Indonesia, which does not have Sharia law.
Nor does India, Malaysia and plenty of other Muslims countries.


Unfortunately, Aceh in Indonesia is ruled by a pretty severe interpretation of sharia. And according to this pew poll, 72 % of Indonesian Muslims support making sharia the official law for the whole country.

And some form of sharia also functions in Malaysia, although it only pertains to Muslims, not the non -Muslim residents.


And 72% of people wanting to bring Sharia is a good thing??? What about the 28% the poor sods who don’t want to be a Muslim?


Emmm no dude, it's a bad thing. I am agreeing with you in that regard.

I also agree with you that the world has a big problem with Islam, and it's growing. That does not mean the whole of Islam is a problem, or that it is irredeemable.
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#677  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jul 15, 2015 2:21 pm

Arjan Dirkse wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
The largest Muslim country in the world is Indonesia, which does not have Sharia law.
Nor does India, Malaysia and plenty of other Muslims countries.


Unfortunately, Aceh in Indonesia is ruled by a pretty severe interpretation of sharia.

You missed an important bit of that Pew page:
Muslims differ widely as to whether sharia should be open to multiple understandings. While many say there is only one true interpretation, substantial percentages in most countries either say there are multiple interpretations or say they do not know

Sharia law is not the national law of Indonesia however. In fact Aceh is a special status province within the country and not at all representative for Indonesia as a whole.


Arjan Dirkse wrote:
And according to this pew poll, 72 % of Indonesian Muslims support making sharia the official law for the whole country.

According to Pew there's also a 50/50 divide among Muslims in Indonesia as to what Sharia actually is, so that's hardly a rigourous statistic.


Arjan Dirkse wrote:And some form of sharia also functions in Malaysia, although it only pertains to Muslims, not the non -Muslim residents.

Therefore irrelevant to Peter's scaremongering bullshit.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#678  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jul 15, 2015 2:22 pm

Peter Brown wrote:
Sendraks wrote:
Peter Brown wrote:
nobody can do better than that!!! :doh:
It is a problem
It is big
It is getting bigger
and eventually it will affect you in someway if it hasn't already.


You're saying so, doesn't make it so Peter. It really doesn't.


except when it is. how many died to Islam today I wonder?

Stop JAQing of Peter.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#679  Postby Sendraks » Jul 15, 2015 2:22 pm

Peter Brown wrote:well that is also supporting my point, Sharia isn't a great system to live under.


That's hardly your point Peter. No one here thinks that Sharia is a great system.

Peter Brown wrote:but it doesn't stop that being demanded for in non Muslim nations does it?

People demand all sorts of stupid things.
A group of rich entitled toffs recently made demands about fox hunting.

Peter Brown wrote: This group wasn't set up because every Muslim in the UK loves British laws. It was set up because a large number of Muslims demanded that to them Sharia trumped British law and the funding that they got from abroad funded political change so Sharia courts were allowed. They have now a non binding comprimise, the fear is the demands for Sharia will end up as legally binding in the UK nd screw all the people who left that sort of imprisonment.


A large number of Muslims?
How large Peter?

Sharia courts are allowed in the UK, but they do not function as a legal authority in the way a UK court does. They are, recognised under the 1996 arbitration act, as a form of arbitration service for Muslims. Individuals involved in cases, must agree to abide by the sharia law rulings. If an individual does not, then they default to their rights and protections under UK.

Sharia courts have no ability to override UK law. None. Anyone who says otherwise is either lying or deeply misunderstood.

All this said, Sharia courts are still deeply wrong, outmoded institutions. They do not operate to the same standard as civil rights as UK courts and are typically tool of perpetuating ongoing discrimination and persecution of women and children. No one can be forced to go before a Sharia court and while this does happen, it is a crime and violation of civil rights under UK law. That such things occur, is abhorrent and UK law can and does become involved.

The best and most effective way for these courts to disappear is for people to stop using them, even for benign arbitration purposes.
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Re: Would you support the forced closure of all mosques...

#680  Postby Peter Brown » Jul 15, 2015 2:24 pm

Most of them aren't psychopaths. They don't want to do psychopathic things. They therefore interpret their religion in a way that allows them to not behave like psychopaths.


Why do you label them as psychopaths? A psychopath has no regard for the law, just self interest.

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