Sorry, but I couldn't watch with any seriousness after she'd underlined the "cock" in "cockney"

Keep It Real wrote:Sorry, but I couldn't watch with any seriousness after she'd underlined the "cock" in "cockney"

FIFY.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:I watched a series on the BBC last month in which some characters spoke with an accent I did not recognise, but they ended several key words with a -ch , g-sound.

* Edit, just found out it's called scouse:

That sounds just like David Lister from Red Dwarf:

Can a native speaker riddle me this; why is dynasty, pronounced as di-nah-stee while dynastic
is pronounced as die-nah-stic?

Thomas Eshuis wrote:Can a native speaker riddle me this; why is dynasty, pronounced as di-nah-stee while dynastic
is pronounced as die-nah-stic?

I'm no native speaker but I don't think there is any rhyme or reason as to how many words are pronounced in English. As for dynasty, apparently it's pronounced dai·nuh·stee in American English and di·nuh·stee in British English.

I guess the answer to your question is 42.

Ya want rules?? This is English.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:Can a native speaker riddle me this; why is dynasty, pronounced as di-nah-stee while dynastic
is pronounced as die-nah-stic?

Both can be pronounced either way. I'd pronounce them both as in your former example.

Fallible wrote:Ya want rules?? This is English.

Spearthrower wrote:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:Can a native speaker riddle me this; why is dynasty, pronounced as di-nah-stee while dynastic
is pronounced as die-nah-stic?

Both can be pronounced either way. I'd pronounce them both as in your former example.

Strangely, the OED claims that in British English, the 'proper' pronunciation is I described in my original post.
I would've thought that changing a noun into a adverb wouldn't unnecessarily change the pronunciation.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:I would've thought that changing a noun into a adverb wouldn't unnecessarily change the pronunciation.

Converting from a stem word to any other word nearly always changes pronunciation, even if only stress intonation.

E.g. noun to adjective.

ATtribute > aTRIButed
CONduct > conDUCted
EXtract > exTRACted

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Strangely, the OED claims that in British English, the 'proper' pronunciation is I described in my original post.

Dunno, but the only one I can find online has British English "dynastic" pronounced as I say it:

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries. ... q=dynastic

Spearthrower wrote:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:I would've thought that changing a noun into a adverb wouldn't unnecessarily change the pronunciation.

Converting from a stem word to any other word nearly always changes pronunciation, even if only stress intonation.

E.g. noun to adjective.

ATtribute > aTRIButed
CONduct > conDUCted
EXtract > exTRACted

Those are examples of a change in word stresses. Which happen in Dutch as well.
The example of dynasty and dynastic, is a change from an short i, to long y.
For the example you listed to be analogous they'd have to be:
Ah-tribute > Aa-tributed
Con-duct > Coon-duct
Ex-tract > Eex-tract

Or to reverse engineer your examples on dynasty/dynastic:
DInasty > diNAStic rather than DInasty > DYnastic.

Spearthrower wrote:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Strangely, the OED claims that in British English, the 'proper' pronunciation is I described in my original post.

Dunno, but the only one I can find online has British English "dynastic" pronounced as I say it:

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries. ... q=dynastic

I misremembered, it was the Cambridge dictionary which provides pronunciations for both Britsh and American English, as well as dynasty & dynastic on the same page:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/pronunciation/english/dynasty

If you listen to the American English pronunciation for both variations of the word, you'll note that they pronounce both words with a -y, rather than one with a -i and the other with a -y as the British pronunciation does.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:I would've thought that changing a noun into a adverb wouldn't unnecessarily change the pronunciation.

Converting from a stem word to any other word nearly always changes pronunciation, even if only stress intonation.

E.g. noun to adjective.

ATtribute > aTRIButed
CONduct > conDUCted
EXtract > exTRACted

Those are examples of a change in word stresses. Which happen in Dutch as well.

Yep that's what I said; a change in pronunciation.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:The example of dynasty and dynastic, is a change from an short i, to long y.

For the example you listed to be analogous they'd have to be:
Ah-tribute > Aa-tributed
Con-duct > Coon-duct
Ex-tract > Eex-tract

Actually, they kind of do, albeit in reverse. They change the first vowel sound to a schwa, so a mid-length sound to a very short sound.

əTRIButed
cənDUCT
əxTRACT <-- probably only a Southern British thing

Thomas Eshuis wrote:Or to reverse engineer your examples on dynasty/dynastic:
DInasty > diNAStic rather than DInasty > DYnastic.

Sure, but as Papa Smurf already pointed out, one's British English and one's American English, so trying to perform the above is going to produce the same kind of results as with aluminium, basil, filet, lieutenant, oregano, privacy, vitamin, etc.

Spearthrower wrote:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:I would've thought that changing a noun into a adverb wouldn't unnecessarily change the pronunciation.

Converting from a stem word to any other word nearly always changes pronunciation, even if only stress intonation.

E.g. noun to adjective.

ATtribute > aTRIButed
CONduct > conDUCted
EXtract > exTRACted

Those are examples of a change in word stresses. Which happen in Dutch as well.

Yep that's what I said; a change in pronunciation.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:The example of dynasty and dynastic, is a change from an short i, to long y.

For the example you listed to be analogous they'd have to be:
Ah-tribute > Aa-tributed
Con-duct > Coon-duct
Ex-tract > Eex-tract

Actually, they kind of do, albeit in reverse. They change the first vowel sound to a schwa, so a mid-length sound to a very short sound.

əTRIButed
cənDUCT
əxTRACT <-- probably only a Southern British thing

Thomas Eshuis wrote:Or to reverse engineer your examples on dynasty/dynastic:
DInasty > diNAStic rather than DInasty > DYnastic.

Sure, but as Papa Smurf already pointed out, one's British English and one's American English, so trying to perform the above is going to produce the same kind of results as with aluminium, basil, filet, lieutenant, oregano, privacy, vitamin, etc.

I fear I am not making my point clearly enough.
I am not talking about a difference in pronunciation in the from of a different word stress.
I am talking about how changing a noun into an adverb changes the pronunciation of a single vowel to a different vowel.
And that, while American English does remain consistent in using a -y sound, the British English pronunciation uses a short -i sound in the verb, but changes it to a longer -y sound in the adverb form of the same word.

Pyrrhic victory is named after King Pyrrhus of Epirus

I read that as - Pirrik victory is named after king pie-russ of eppi-russ. But I could retreat if things got too heated...

Thomas, I would use the short -i for both words.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
I fear I am not making my point clearly enough.
I am not talking about a difference in pronunciation in the from of a different word stress.
I am talking about how changing a noun into an adverb changes the pronunciation of a single vowel to a different vowel.

Aye, that's why I gave examples of schwa sounds: it's a different vowel.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:And that, while American English does remain consistent in using a -y sound, the British English pronunciation uses a short -i sound in the verb, but changes it to a longer -y sound in the adverb form of the same word.

Honestly, I don't think it's actually true. Perhaps in some regional accents... I don't know as British pronunciation is bizarre - although I'd assume that it would be consistent across both forms, but in the South, it's DINasty, diNAStic - no difference in the 'i' sound.

Or phonetically:

/ˈdɪnəsti/
/dɪˈnæstɪk/

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries. ... ?q=dynasty
https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries. ... q=dynastic

Fallible wrote:Thomas, I would use the short -i for both words.

That's seems more sensible than what the Cambridge dictionary proposes.