A lovely lady explaining English accents and dialects.

Discuss various aspects of natural language.

Moderators: Calilasseia, ADParker

Re: A lovely lady explaining English accents and dialects.

#21  Postby Keep It Real » Aug 16, 2019 5:05 pm

Sorry, but I couldn't watch with any seriousness after she'd underlined the "cock" in "cockney"
You're only conscious when you're thinking about consciousness.
User avatar
Keep It Real
 
Posts: 9196
Age: 39

Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: A lovely lady explaining English accents and dialects.

#22  Postby Hermit » Aug 16, 2019 5:44 pm

God is the mysterious veil under which we hide our ignorance of the cause. - Léo Errera


God created the universe
God just exists
User avatar
Hermit
 
Name: Cantankerous grump
Posts: 4337
Age: 67
Male

Print view this post

Re: A lovely lady explaining English accents and dialects.

#23  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Aug 16, 2019 9:47 pm

Keep It Real wrote:Sorry, but I couldn't watch with any seriousness after she'd underlined the "cock" in "cockney"

FIFY. :naughty:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 31081
Age: 31
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: A lovely lady explaining English accents and dialects.

#24  Postby Papa Smurf » Aug 17, 2019 4:20 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:I watched a series on the BBC last month in which some characters spoke with an accent I did not recognise, but they ended several key words with a -ch , g-sound.

* Edit, just found out it's called scouse:


That sounds just like David Lister from Red Dwarf:

User avatar
Papa Smurf
 
Posts: 300

Netherlands (nl)
Print view this post

Re: A lovely lady explaining English accents and dialects.

#25  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Aug 17, 2019 9:34 pm

Can a native speaker riddle me this; why is dynasty, pronounced as di-nah-stee while dynastic
is pronounced as die-nah-stic?
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 31081
Age: 31
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: A lovely lady explaining English accents and dialects.

#26  Postby Papa Smurf » Aug 17, 2019 10:01 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:Can a native speaker riddle me this; why is dynasty, pronounced as di-nah-stee while dynastic
is pronounced as die-nah-stic?


I'm no native speaker but I don't think there is any rhyme or reason as to how many words are pronounced in English. As for dynasty, apparently it's pronounced dai·nuh·stee in American English and di·nuh·stee in British English.

I guess the answer to your question is 42.
User avatar
Papa Smurf
 
Posts: 300

Netherlands (nl)
Print view this post

Re: A lovely lady explaining English accents and dialects.

#27  Postby Fallible » Aug 17, 2019 11:58 pm

Ya want rules?? This is English.
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
User avatar
Fallible
RS Donator
 
Name: Alice Pooper
Posts: 51607
Age: 48
Female

Country: Engerland na na
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: A lovely lady explaining English accents and dialects.

#28  Postby Spearthrower » Aug 18, 2019 3:12 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:Can a native speaker riddle me this; why is dynasty, pronounced as di-nah-stee while dynastic
is pronounced as die-nah-stic?



Both can be pronounced either way. I'd pronounce them both as in your former example.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 27890
Age: 44
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: A lovely lady explaining English accents and dialects.

#29  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Aug 18, 2019 10:47 am

Fallible wrote:Ya want rules?? This is English.

:lol:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 31081
Age: 31
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: A lovely lady explaining English accents and dialects.

#30  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Aug 18, 2019 10:48 am

Spearthrower wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:Can a native speaker riddle me this; why is dynasty, pronounced as di-nah-stee while dynastic
is pronounced as die-nah-stic?



Both can be pronounced either way. I'd pronounce them both as in your former example.

Strangely, the OED claims that in British English, the 'proper' pronunciation is I described in my original post.
I would've thought that changing a noun into a adverb wouldn't unnecessarily change the pronunciation.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 31081
Age: 31
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: A lovely lady explaining English accents and dialects.

#31  Postby Spearthrower » Aug 18, 2019 12:56 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:I would've thought that changing a noun into a adverb wouldn't unnecessarily change the pronunciation.


Converting from a stem word to any other word nearly always changes pronunciation, even if only stress intonation.

E.g. noun to adjective.

ATtribute > aTRIButed
CONduct > conDUCted
EXtract > exTRACted
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 27890
Age: 44
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: A lovely lady explaining English accents and dialects.

#32  Postby Spearthrower » Aug 18, 2019 12:58 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Strangely, the OED claims that in British English, the 'proper' pronunciation is I described in my original post.



Dunno, but the only one I can find online has British English "dynastic" pronounced as I say it:

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries. ... q=dynastic
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 27890
Age: 44
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: A lovely lady explaining English accents and dialects.

#33  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Aug 18, 2019 8:50 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:I would've thought that changing a noun into a adverb wouldn't unnecessarily change the pronunciation.


Converting from a stem word to any other word nearly always changes pronunciation, even if only stress intonation.

E.g. noun to adjective.

ATtribute > aTRIButed
CONduct > conDUCted
EXtract > exTRACted

Those are examples of a change in word stresses. Which happen in Dutch as well.
The example of dynasty and dynastic, is a change from an short i, to long y.
For the example you listed to be analogous they'd have to be:
Ah-tribute > Aa-tributed
Con-duct > Coon-duct
Ex-tract > Eex-tract

Or to reverse engineer your examples on dynasty/dynastic:
DInasty > diNAStic rather than DInasty > DYnastic.
Last edited by Thomas Eshuis on Aug 18, 2019 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 31081
Age: 31
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: A lovely lady explaining English accents and dialects.

#34  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Aug 18, 2019 8:55 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Strangely, the OED claims that in British English, the 'proper' pronunciation is I described in my original post.



Dunno, but the only one I can find online has British English "dynastic" pronounced as I say it:

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries. ... q=dynastic

I misremembered, it was the Cambridge dictionary which provides pronunciations for both Britsh and American English, as well as dynasty & dynastic on the same page:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/pronunciation/english/dynasty

If you listen to the American English pronunciation for both variations of the word, you'll note that they pronounce both words with a -y, rather than one with a -i and the other with a -y as the British pronunciation does.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 31081
Age: 31
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: A lovely lady explaining English accents and dialects.

#35  Postby Spearthrower » Aug 19, 2019 2:55 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:I would've thought that changing a noun into a adverb wouldn't unnecessarily change the pronunciation.


Converting from a stem word to any other word nearly always changes pronunciation, even if only stress intonation.

E.g. noun to adjective.

ATtribute > aTRIButed
CONduct > conDUCted
EXtract > exTRACted


Those are examples of a change in word stresses. Which happen in Dutch as well.


Yep that's what I said; a change in pronunciation.


Thomas Eshuis wrote:The example of dynasty and dynastic, is a change from an short i, to long y.

For the example you listed to be analogous they'd have to be:
Ah-tribute > Aa-tributed
Con-duct > Coon-duct
Ex-tract > Eex-tract


Actually, they kind of do, albeit in reverse. They change the first vowel sound to a schwa, so a mid-length sound to a very short sound.

əTRIButed
cənDUCT
əxTRACT <-- probably only a Southern British thing

Thomas Eshuis wrote:Or to reverse engineer your examples on dynasty/dynastic:
DInasty > diNAStic rather than DInasty > DYnastic.



Sure, but as Papa Smurf already pointed out, one's British English and one's American English, so trying to perform the above is going to produce the same kind of results as with aluminium, basil, filet, lieutenant, oregano, privacy, vitamin, etc.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 27890
Age: 44
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: A lovely lady explaining English accents and dialects.

#36  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Aug 19, 2019 8:50 am

Spearthrower wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:I would've thought that changing a noun into a adverb wouldn't unnecessarily change the pronunciation.


Converting from a stem word to any other word nearly always changes pronunciation, even if only stress intonation.

E.g. noun to adjective.

ATtribute > aTRIButed
CONduct > conDUCted
EXtract > exTRACted


Those are examples of a change in word stresses. Which happen in Dutch as well.


Yep that's what I said; a change in pronunciation.


Thomas Eshuis wrote:The example of dynasty and dynastic, is a change from an short i, to long y.

For the example you listed to be analogous they'd have to be:
Ah-tribute > Aa-tributed
Con-duct > Coon-duct
Ex-tract > Eex-tract


Actually, they kind of do, albeit in reverse. They change the first vowel sound to a schwa, so a mid-length sound to a very short sound.

əTRIButed
cənDUCT
əxTRACT <-- probably only a Southern British thing

Thomas Eshuis wrote:Or to reverse engineer your examples on dynasty/dynastic:
DInasty > diNAStic rather than DInasty > DYnastic.



Sure, but as Papa Smurf already pointed out, one's British English and one's American English, so trying to perform the above is going to produce the same kind of results as with aluminium, basil, filet, lieutenant, oregano, privacy, vitamin, etc.

I fear I am not making my point clearly enough.
I am not talking about a difference in pronunciation in the from of a different word stress.
I am talking about how changing a noun into an adverb changes the pronunciation of a single vowel to a different vowel.
And that, while American English does remain consistent in using a -y sound, the British English pronunciation uses a short -i sound in the verb, but changes it to a longer -y sound in the adverb form of the same word.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 31081
Age: 31
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: A lovely lady explaining English accents and dialects.

#37  Postby newolder » Aug 19, 2019 9:19 am

Pyrrhic victory is named after King Pyrrhus of Epirus


I read that as - Pirrik victory is named after king pie-russ of eppi-russ. But I could retreat if things got too heated...
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould
User avatar
newolder
 
Name: Albert Ross
Posts: 7310
Age: 1
Male

Country: Feudal Estate number 9
Print view this post

Re: A lovely lady explaining English accents and dialects.

#38  Postby Fallible » Aug 19, 2019 9:22 am

Thomas, I would use the short -i for both words.
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
User avatar
Fallible
RS Donator
 
Name: Alice Pooper
Posts: 51607
Age: 48
Female

Country: Engerland na na
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: A lovely lady explaining English accents and dialects.

#39  Postby Spearthrower » Aug 19, 2019 9:53 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
I fear I am not making my point clearly enough.
I am not talking about a difference in pronunciation in the from of a different word stress.
I am talking about how changing a noun into an adverb changes the pronunciation of a single vowel to a different vowel.


Aye, that's why I gave examples of schwa sounds: it's a different vowel.


Thomas Eshuis wrote:And that, while American English does remain consistent in using a -y sound, the British English pronunciation uses a short -i sound in the verb, but changes it to a longer -y sound in the adverb form of the same word.


Honestly, I don't think it's actually true. Perhaps in some regional accents... I don't know as British pronunciation is bizarre - although I'd assume that it would be consistent across both forms, but in the South, it's DINasty, diNAStic - no difference in the 'i' sound.

Or phonetically:

/ˈdɪnəsti/
/dɪˈnæstɪk/

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries. ... ?q=dynasty
https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries. ... q=dynastic
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 27890
Age: 44
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: A lovely lady explaining English accents and dialects.

#40  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Aug 19, 2019 10:20 am

Fallible wrote:Thomas, I would use the short -i for both words.

That's seems more sensible than what the Cambridge dictionary proposes.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 31081
Age: 31
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

PreviousNext

Return to Linguistics

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest