Do you accord ?

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Re: Do you accord ?

#101  Postby The_Piper » Sep 29, 2017 7:09 am

Fallible wrote:I don't have time for a long answer now, but it seems to me that the problem is with him, not with CBT. CBT for social anxiety involves reducing the fears around social interaction via addressing the core beliefs which are holding them up. It helps you construct more realistic thoughts by overriding the skewed perceptions you have created over the years. If he's still hiding from talking to you about what he did, it's probably, like it says in the link, that he fears how you will see him and that will affect how he sees himself. He doesn't yet realise that by avoiding the discussion he is strengthening any negative thoughts you have towards him anyway. Either that, or he does realise, but the fear of what you might say to him, about him, is too much to handle. Unfortunately CBT can't fix someone unless they want to engage. You also say that he was having the therapy, as in it is still ongoing. It's a process, obviously, and as such takes time. So in answer to your question, I can't really see how one could misuse CBT, since it is a model which aims to help the patient become more realistic in their thinking patterns, not just as unrealistic in the opposite direction.

As for your question on OCD, you don't really get OCD 'over' specific objects or actions. It's an anxiety disorder, involving those pesky thinking errors again. You have intrusive thoughts concerning things like your health, your personal responsibility or whatever, and those are so unpleasant and tenacious that you have to try to find a way to stop them coming true. The intrusive thoughts then lead to compulsive behaviours. Importantly, these behaviours don't need to be ostensibly related to the fearful thought which has engendered them. That is how rituals start. For whatever reason, you can become convinced that using your cutlery in the correct way and never using it in the wrong way will mean that nothing bad happens that day, for example. Sometimes the compulsions are related, so say if you pass a kid on the street, you might have intrusive thoughts that you didn't pass the kid by, you ran him over. The compulsive behaviours might then involve repeatedly driving past the scene of the 'accident', or repeatedly seeking reassurance from your passenger that you did not in fact run anyone over. The behaviours are used to induce the feeling of some level of control in your life when so much is out of your control.

It's interesting how most facets of OCD don't seem to be present with me, only the germs. I don't have intrusive thoughts about germs, or any thoughts at all about germs generally, until I encounter them. So to speak, because I have countless germs on me right now, on my fingers, the keyboard, etc that I'm aware of, but don't bother me at all. Except if I were going to eat, then I'd wash the hands. Doctors recommend it though. :doh:
The needing to repeat behaviors...wait, I do wash my hands two or three times if it was something really dirty. I mean honestly dirty, like something off the bathroom floor, or anything that was in or near mouse crap. I hate dropping a magazine because those don't clean easily!
But as far as keeping things neat and orderly, I wish. I don't have rigid thoughts or routines, I would classify both of those as very liberal. Even the cleanup routine, whatever, as long as it makes suds.
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Re: Do you accord ?

#102  Postby surreptitious57 » Sep 29, 2017 7:25 am

The bottom line is this : his mental health versus your sense of pride. And the former is more important. You not getting an
apology will not seriously impact upon your life but him being pressurised by you to apologise will seriously impact upon his
And self defeating from your perspective too. Since the apology will simply be longer in coming. Assuming that it ever does

So what I would do knowing he is non neurotypical and short on spoons is write to him and apologise to him for putting him
under pressure and tell him you forgive him and no longer want an apology from him. That would be one less thing for him
to worry about and you would feel good about helping out a friend. Sometimes it is not all about us but someone else who
is suffering more than we are. And we do not always see it straight away
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Re: Do you accord ?

#103  Postby Fallible » Sep 29, 2017 7:44 am

surreptitious57 wrote:You are angry and impatient with him because he has not apologised to you for what he did to you. He has SAD so he finds
it difficult to even engage in non verbal communication. If it takes him one year just to pluck up the courage to apologise
to you for not talking to you then his SAD would seem to be quite extreme. It may be that discussing the thing in question
with you would make it worse for him. All you want is an apology. But if he cannot give you that there is not a lot you can
do about it. Non neurotypical people only have a limited number of spoons. This means their disorder prevents them from
functioning in the way that neurotypical people do and so for him to apologise would require that he has sufficient spoons
that he obviously does not have at this moment in time. Which might help you understand why he cannot apologise to you
right now. He probably needs those spoons for things that are far more important to him and you should try to respect this


:nod:

Anyone who's interested, spoons = mental resources. We have a finite supply of resources, and each resource-hungry exercise takes more units of mental resources.
John Grant wrote:They say 'let go, let go, let go, you must learn to let go'.
If I hear that fucking phrase again, this baby's gonna blow
Into a million itsy bitsy tiny pieces, don't you know,
Just like my favourite scene in Scanners .
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Re: Do you accord ?

#104  Postby Fallible » Sep 29, 2017 7:54 am

The_Piper wrote:
Fallible wrote:I don't have time for a long answer now, but it seems to me that the problem is with him, not with CBT. CBT for social anxiety involves reducing the fears around social interaction via addressing the core beliefs which are holding them up. It helps you construct more realistic thoughts by overriding the skewed perceptions you have created over the years. If he's still hiding from talking to you about what he did, it's probably, like it says in the link, that he fears how you will see him and that will affect how he sees himself. He doesn't yet realise that by avoiding the discussion he is strengthening any negative thoughts you have towards him anyway. Either that, or he does realise, but the fear of what you might say to him, about him, is too much to handle. Unfortunately CBT can't fix someone unless they want to engage. You also say that he was having the therapy, as in it is still ongoing. It's a process, obviously, and as such takes time. So in answer to your question, I can't really see how one could misuse CBT, since it is a model which aims to help the patient become more realistic in their thinking patterns, not just as unrealistic in the opposite direction.

As for your question on OCD, you don't really get OCD 'over' specific objects or actions. It's an anxiety disorder, involving those pesky thinking errors again. You have intrusive thoughts concerning things like your health, your personal responsibility or whatever, and those are so unpleasant and tenacious that you have to try to find a way to stop them coming true. The intrusive thoughts then lead to compulsive behaviours. Importantly, these behaviours don't need to be ostensibly related to the fearful thought which has engendered them. That is how rituals start. For whatever reason, you can become convinced that using your cutlery in the correct way and never using it in the wrong way will mean that nothing bad happens that day, for example. Sometimes the compulsions are related, so say if you pass a kid on the street, you might have intrusive thoughts that you didn't pass the kid by, you ran him over. The compulsive behaviours might then involve repeatedly driving past the scene of the 'accident', or repeatedly seeking reassurance from your passenger that you did not in fact run anyone over. The behaviours are used to induce the feeling of some level of control in your life when so much is out of your control.

It's interesting how most facets of OCD don't seem to be present with me, only the germs. I don't have intrusive thoughts about germs, or any thoughts at all about germs generally, until I encounter them. So to speak, because I have countless germs on me right now, on my fingers, the keyboard, etc that I'm aware of, but don't bother me at all. Except if I were going to eat, then I'd wash the hands. Doctors recommend it though. :doh:
The needing to repeat behaviors...wait, I do wash my hands two or three times if it was something really dirty. I mean honestly dirty, like something off the bathroom floor, or anything that was in or near mouse crap. I hate dropping a magazine because those don't clean easily!
But as far as keeping things neat and orderly, I wish. I don't have rigid thoughts or routines, I would classify both of those as very liberal. Even the cleanup routine, whatever, as long as it makes suds.


Just for interest, a couple of titbits - the thoughts which lead to any behaviour can be extremely swift and fleeting, to the point where you don't even realise you've had them. You just know that you feel a certain way, for example scared or distressed, and that causes you to act. Also, there is concept called pure O, which has been bandied about and refers to the incidence of intrusive thoughts with no discernible outward compulsive acts. This is contested, as sometimes rituals are internal, for example reciting words in your head. I sometimes have to count to 32 over and over to deal with anxiety, although I don't know that I'm doing it for that reason at the time. It's automatic. Anyway, I suppose what I'm saying is that there appear to be some non-typical variations of OCD, and one can miss out some characteristics which a layperson might associate with OCD. In my case, I'm not that bothered about germs, my twitches appear to be attempts to create some kind of order in the chaos which is the real world, in order to create an illusion of safety. I also don't hoard.
John Grant wrote:They say 'let go, let go, let go, you must learn to let go'.
If I hear that fucking phrase again, this baby's gonna blow
Into a million itsy bitsy tiny pieces, don't you know,
Just like my favourite scene in Scanners .
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Re: Do you accord ?

#105  Postby Fallible » Sep 29, 2017 8:02 am

surreptitious57 wrote:The bottom line is this : his mental health versus your sense of pride. And the former is more important. You not getting an
apology will not seriously impact upon your life but him being pressurised by you to apologise will seriously impact upon his
And self defeating from your perspective too. Since the apology will simply be longer in coming. Assuming that it ever does

So what I would do knowing he is non neurotypical and short on spoons is write to him and apologise to him for putting him
under pressure and tell him you forgive him and no longer want an apology from him. That would be one less thing for him
to worry about and you would feel good about helping out a friend. Sometimes it is not all about us but someone else who
is suffering more than we are. And we do not always see it straight away


:this: except it's not necessary for crank to override his own sense of hurt and apologise. His feelings are also justified. But yeah, it might be good to let go of the expectation of apology. He in't gonna get it anyway by the looks of things, so continuing to look for it puts crank on a hiding to nothing and in an endless holding pattern.
John Grant wrote:They say 'let go, let go, let go, you must learn to let go'.
If I hear that fucking phrase again, this baby's gonna blow
Into a million itsy bitsy tiny pieces, don't you know,
Just like my favourite scene in Scanners .
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Re: Do you accord ?

#106  Postby crank » Sep 29, 2017 9:14 am

Thank you both for your replies.

Fallible, you describe how CBT is meant to be used. What's to keep someone who already has denial issues from using it, in a way that seems perfectly normal to him, but since he's in denial, he isn't perceiving the issues clearly enough, he's misidentifying how he's off reality wise. He thinks he's catastrophizing some event X, when in reality what he thinks X is is only the tip of the iceberg so to speak in how bad his behaviour was. This would allow him to minimize how seriously he views his actions when he ought to be amplifying how seriously bad he's been viewing them. Jesus, that's too confusing. What it boils down to is I'm trying to say just because CBT is supposed to work in a certain way, that shouldn't make you think that bent and broken and twisted and warped folk will use it that way. Or less confusingly, the thinking errors identified by folks with a warped view of reality might not be identified all that well. I need to use CBT to tell myself I'm not the most confusing writer on the forum.
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Re: Do you accord ?

#107  Postby crank » Sep 29, 2017 11:06 am

surreptitious57 wrote:You are angry and impatient with him because he has not apologised to you for what he did to you. He has SAD so he finds
it difficult to even engage in non verbal communication. If it takes him one year just to pluck up the courage to apologise
to you for not talking to you then his SAD would seem to be quite extreme. It may be that discussing the thing in question
with you would make it worse for him. All you want is an apology. But if he cannot give you that there is not a lot you can
do about it. Non neurotypical people only have a limited number of spoons. This means their disorder prevents them from
functioning in the way that neurotypical people do and so for him to apologise would require that he has sufficient spoons
that he obviously does not have at this moment in time. Which might help you understand why he cannot apologise to you
right now. He probably needs those spoons for things that are far more important to him and you should try to respect this

I really appreciate these replies, y'all made a real effort, thank you.

Im not actually angry at not getting a real apology, I even think he was at least trying to be sincere when he left the nearly bogus one. The thing is, I don't really know what he did to me, and I don't think he does either. I think at the time he was very mixed up and confused which lead him to make choices that he didn't really think through enough, resulting in doing things that really fucked me up in a number of ways. His behaviour was wildly out of character, as was the way he tried to deal with me and the aftermath. What i really am is extremely bewildered, confused, and hurt.

It's been over 5 years now since this happened, over 4 since he left the apology. I'm not going to go into all the details, and I'm sorry if that makes some of this too vague.

OK, I'll try to be concise, but don't expect concision. After this thing happened, the guy just effectively disappeared, ignored all attempts at communication. I managed to maneuver him into talking to me resulting in him telling me something that was so ridiculous no one could possibly believe it. He said he disappeared so he wouldn't have to talk to me, since if he didn't tell me what he did then he wouldn't be the source of any pain I might feel. Surely it isn't just me that thinks this is utter breathtakinginanity? Could anyone really believe this? And to make it even more ludicrous, the 'apology' a year later was him apologizing for this disappearing, telling me about the SAD and how that is why he couldn't talk to me. Not a hint of how huge a lie he tried to pull the year before. A lie he was telling himself I'm sure, he wasn't really lying to me. I don't think he let himself realize how absurd all of it was, thinking the apology was somehow adequate and not bothering to mention the lie the year before.

He even went so far as to say he hoped I wasn't still upset or in pain from what he did. How about whether he actually cared? Cared beyond some vague hope? Wouldn't you at least ask 'How are you" and 'Are you OK' But that would require seeing if I replied.

So it's been over 4 years, I figured he's bound to be over whatever the fuck BS mental state he was in, and that's when I tried to get back in touch. Sent a few emails, a few FB IMs, nothing, no acknowledgement whatsoever, FB IMs not even picked up. I decided I would send a friend request, he deleted it within an hour. He joined FB since the 'apology', I was leaving him alone, I didn't try to intrude in any way for the last 4 years, really 5, since I wasn't trying for the year it took for him to send the 'apology'. I went so far as to get this old FB account I had created for reason unremembered but probably just fucking around, and sent him a message. He had no idea who this person was, he picked it up within 2 seconds, and within another 2 had shut that avenue of communication down.

I can see how anxieties can lead you to go inert when faced with a difficult social interaction. But can they lead you to such positive, almost frantic actions to cut off communication channels like that?

I miss my friend, and thought 5 years was enough to get over this thing, but apparently not. Just to make things more dramatic, I happen to know he blew an important opportunity recently, something he'd been working on for a long time, I think it likely it was his difficulties with anxieties that lead to this. So not only did I really miss my old friend, but I got really concerned about him missing out on this thing I knew he cared about. It's both of these things that lead me to try to get back in contact with him. This is something I could really use an educated response to. He has habitually engaged in this behaviour pattern for over 5 years now, being in denial about so much of what happened back then, and how he refuses to have any contact with me, almost surely because I would want to discuss what he desperately wants to think never happened. Won't this inevitably lead to him being that much more prone to slipping into these behaviour patterns as a coping mechanism the next time he faces major stressful situations? It's like he can be robust up to a certain level of stress before the anxiety disorder kicks in, but he's already, by habit, engaging in these behaviour patterns. Won't that really lower the stress levels he can handle like a normal person before the SAD kicks in?

Jesus, this is ridiculously long. Because of the above, I'm trying to get this guy to talk to me so we can resolve the issues between us. So we can both know what the hell happened 5 years ago, and he can make a real apology where he actually knows what he is apologizing for. I am trying to help him as much as I am trying to get him to do what's right by me. Am I off base here? Is it wrong to think he really needs, for his benefit, to devote all the fucking spoons he needs to talk with me and get this behind us?
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Re: Do you accord ?

#108  Postby Fallible » Sep 29, 2017 12:59 pm

crank wrote:Thank you both for your replies.

Fallible, you describe how CBT is meant to be used. What's to keep someone who already has denial issues from using it, in a way that seems perfectly normal to him, but since he's in denial, he isn't perceiving the issues clearly enough, he's misidentifying how he's off reality wise. He thinks he's catastrophizing some event X, when in reality what he thinks X is is only the tip of the iceberg so to speak in how bad his behaviour was. This would allow him to minimize how seriously he views his actions when he ought to be amplifying how seriously bad he's been viewing them. Jesus, that's too confusing. What it boils down to is I'm trying to say just because CBT is supposed to work in a certain way, that shouldn't make you think that bent and broken and twisted and warped folk will use it that way. Or less confusingly, the thinking errors identified by folks with a warped view of reality might not be identified all that well. I need to use CBT to tell myself I'm not the most confusing writer on the forum.


It doesn't make me think that. It makes me think that you maybe didn't get my previous point, which is that CBT uncovers irrational thoughts and exposes them to reality. This whole thing is too confusing. There are too many unknowns. Like, do you mean he's giving CBT to himself or what? That's not really 'having CBT.' That's using some CBT techniques in some kind of ad hoc fashion. A therapist is going to recognise denial and challenge him about it. It's pretty easy to spot in a patient. Also if he's not talking to you about what he did, it's probably because he is catastrophising the outcome. If he could be more rational about it, it might actually mean he WAS then able to face you, so minimising the magnitude of it might not even be the terrible thing you seem to think it would be. That's just a couple of variables. There are more.

Ah I see another post there from you. I'm at work, just cramming some food into my gob between patients. It's Friday fuck yeah, so hopefully will have more time this evening to type the more considered response you deserve.
John Grant wrote:They say 'let go, let go, let go, you must learn to let go'.
If I hear that fucking phrase again, this baby's gonna blow
Into a million itsy bitsy tiny pieces, don't you know,
Just like my favourite scene in Scanners .
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Re: Do you accord ?

#109  Postby surreptitious57 » Sep 29, 2017 1:39 pm

I cannot tell you what to do and the advice I have given so far is only what I would do or try to do were I in the same situation. All I do is put an idea out. Whether it is accepted or not is not my place to say. For I respect the complete
freedom of everyone to think for themselves and regardless of whatever that may be

Slowly as I get older I have found myself becoming more detached so more free as a consequence. Not by meditation
or yoga but just by naturally letting go. The intensity is gradually reducing and so am now as free as I have ever been
I have learnt that one cannot change the world one can only change oneself so that is what I do. I am fortunate to be
able to do this because I am all alone in this world. What may seem like a very sad place to be is really one of virtual contentment. I think a neutral attitude is better than a positive one since you cannot be positive all the time but you
can be neutral all the time. Hence why I rate contentment far more than happiness

You know what Buddhism says about suffering it says the root of all suffering is desire. And so you control desire then
you control suffering. So letting go or learning to let go is the first step towards this. I am not a Buddhist but there is
much wisdom in that philosophy. Letting go is not easy but it can be done. I let go simply by letting time work slowly
on my mind. I am not the same person I was twenty years ago. I wish I was the person then that I am now. Can never
be that of course. But I can and will be that person however till the end of my days
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Re: Do you accord ?

#110  Postby crank » Sep 29, 2017 3:57 pm

Fallible wrote:
crank wrote:Thank you both for your replies.

Fallible, you describe how CBT is meant to be used. What's to keep someone who already has denial issues from using it, in a way that seems perfectly normal to him, but since he's in denial, he isn't perceiving the issues clearly enough, he's misidentifying how he's off reality wise. He thinks he's catastrophizing some event X, when in reality what he thinks X is is only the tip of the iceberg so to speak in how bad his behaviour was. This would allow him to minimize how seriously he views his actions when he ought to be amplifying how seriously bad he's been viewing them. Jesus, that's too confusing. What it boils down to is I'm trying to say just because CBT is supposed to work in a certain way, that shouldn't make you think that bent and broken and twisted and warped folk will use it that way. Or less confusingly, the thinking errors identified by folks with a warped view of reality might not be identified all that well. I need to use CBT to tell myself I'm not the most confusing writer on the forum.


It doesn't make me think that. It makes me think that you maybe didn't get my previous point, which is that CBT uncovers irrational thoughts and exposes them to reality. This whole thing is too confusing. There are too many unknowns. Like, do you mean he's giving CBT to himself or what? That's not really 'having CBT.' That's using some CBT techniques in some kind of ad hoc fashion. A therapist is going to recognise denial and challenge him about it. It's pretty easy to spot in a patient. Also if he's not talking to you about what he did, it's probably because he is catastrophising the outcome. If he could be more rational about it, it might actually mean he WAS then able to face you, so minimising the magnitude of it might not even be the terrible thing you seem to think it would be. That's just a couple of variables. There are more.

Ah I see another post there from you. I'm at work, just cramming some food into my gob between patients. It's Friday fuck yeah, so hopefully will have more time this evening to type the more considered response you deserve.

I also got confused about whether there was a therapist involved. His exact words were "... I've been doing CBT for the last 2-3
months, and I think I've mostly got over one of the main causes of this). I dealt with problems by ignoring and avoiding them..." I first took it to mean a therapist was involved, later I realized that was not a warranted assumption, I don't really know but lean a bit toward not. I already new he had therapy earlier, and that's where he learned CBT techniques. It is meant to be something you learn and do on your own, unless I'm grossly mistaken. I read a couple of books, one of them I think is generally very well regarded. Burn's Feeling Good. [pause] OK, I briefly wiki'ed up, I think what I could glean from that is it's largely meant to be therapist driven but having a book and doing it on your own can help. Then I got to the criticisms etc. section and that made me think it isn't quite as well accepted as I thought, with a fair number of recent results not so positive. One critic said what I've been trying to say, but without anywhere near the wordy confusion, simply "the self-deception encouraged within clients and patients engaged in CBT". It's this that bothers me, because sometimes catastrophizing something is not an error.

On the other hand, sometimes divorcing yourself from reality is the healthiest choice. Unfortunately, I'm terrible at that. Corey Doctorow has a great comment that is somewhat relevant. When you're shipwrecked, you tread water as long as you can, not because it's at all likely that you'll get rescued, but because 100% of those that did get rescued tread water. Perhaps the best ideas along these lines can be found in a fair number of the Discworld books, often said by my favorite character, Death, commenting on the nature of the human condition. Another tidbit of relevant info is that pessimists are more realistic than optimists. Taking all of this together leads me to realize I gotta go take a leak.
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Re: Do you accord ?

#111  Postby crank » Sep 29, 2017 4:50 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:I cannot tell you what to do and the advice I have given so far is only what I would do or try to do were I in the same situation. All I do is put an idea out. Whether it is accepted or not is not my place to say. For I respect the complete
freedom of everyone to think for themselves and regardless of whatever that may be

Slowly as I get older I have found myself becoming more detached so more free as a consequence. Not by meditation
or yoga but just by naturally letting go. The intensity is gradually reducing and so am now as free as I have ever been
I have learnt that one cannot change the world one can only change oneself so that is what I do. I am fortunate to be
able to do this because I am all alone in this world. What may seem like a very sad place to be is really one of virtual contentment. I think a neutral attitude is better than a positive one since you cannot be positive all the time but you
can be neutral all the time. Hence why I rate contentment far more than happiness

You know what Buddhism says about suffering it says the root of all suffering is desire. And so you control desire then
you control suffering. So letting go or learning to let go is the first step towards this. I am not a Buddhist but there is
much wisdom in that philosophy. Letting go is not easy but it can be done. I let go simply by letting time work slowly
on my mind. I am not the same person I was twenty years ago. I wish I was the person then that I am now. Can never
be that of course. But I can and will be that person however till the end of my days

First off, thanks again for the reply. And 2nd, did you notice Fallible's sig right above your post? For the record,, since these things change:
John Grant wrote:
They say 'let go, let go, let go, you must learn to let go'.
If I hear that fucking phrase again, this baby's gonna blow
Into a million itsy bitsy tiny pieces, don't you know,
Just like my favourite scene in Scanners .


I understand what you're saying, and realize the wisdom in it. But I am more like John Grant, who I know nothing about and don't even know if he's a person or a character. While I have gone along the path you've managed to take, that only goes for certain situations/issues/whatevers. In many if not most others, not so much. I always heard as you got older, you were supposed to get more laid back. For me, it's gone the other way. I get more POed, more passionate, than I did when younger. Even if I'm only tilting at windmills, I'm doing it more intensely. It's far from an optimum choice, but then that's who I am, what can you do?

Focusing on controlling desire makes sense, but how much control one can exert is a problematic concept. The way I see it is if you have complete control of your emotions, they're not really emotions. I come to this through thinking about what it will mean when we learn how to gain knob-twiddling control over everything about our minds. This might be a long way away, but at some point, we will upload our minds into machines in some way. We will gain total control of the whole process of mind. At that point, what would it mean to tell someone 'I love you'?

I know what you are talking about is different. And a years long effort to blunt desire, or to redirect it somehow, is not the same as twiddling a knob. But what I'm saying is still somewhat relevant, at least so I think.

One thing that still drives me is curiosity, I always want to know. I think if I lost my curiosity, I would kill myself as what need of more time would remain? And in this situation, curiosity is one of the main reasons I want to deal with this person. I want to know what the hell he was thinking, or thought he was doing, or ??? Plus, and this is why I stressed needing to know if his SAD related behaviour stemming from our conflict makes him more susceptible to his SAD recurring whenever he's confronted with stressful social situations in the future. I really do want to help him, and yes, that means getting him to do the right thing by me. Letting it all go simply isn't something I can do, I don't seem to work that way.
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Re: Do you accord ?

#112  Postby Fallible » Sep 29, 2017 5:31 pm

John Grant is a person, a musician. He's a gay man who was diagnosed with HIV some time ago. The sig is from a song of his called Grey Tickles, Black Pressure , where he talks about his feelings concerning his diagnosis and being middle aged.



It kind of resonated with me after I got diagnosed with a motherfucking cancerous tumour, and everyone was telling me I had to be positive and move forward.
John Grant wrote:They say 'let go, let go, let go, you must learn to let go'.
If I hear that fucking phrase again, this baby's gonna blow
Into a million itsy bitsy tiny pieces, don't you know,
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Re: Do you accord ?

#113  Postby Fallible » Sep 29, 2017 6:31 pm

crank wrote:
Fallible wrote:
crank wrote:Thank you both for your replies.

Fallible, you describe how CBT is meant to be used. What's to keep someone who already has denial issues from using it, in a way that seems perfectly normal to him, but since he's in denial, he isn't perceiving the issues clearly enough, he's misidentifying how he's off reality wise. He thinks he's catastrophizing some event X, when in reality what he thinks X is is only the tip of the iceberg so to speak in how bad his behaviour was. This would allow him to minimize how seriously he views his actions when he ought to be amplifying how seriously bad he's been viewing them. Jesus, that's too confusing. What it boils down to is I'm trying to say just because CBT is supposed to work in a certain way, that shouldn't make you think that bent and broken and twisted and warped folk will use it that way. Or less confusingly, the thinking errors identified by folks with a warped view of reality might not be identified all that well. I need to use CBT to tell myself I'm not the most confusing writer on the forum.


It doesn't make me think that. It makes me think that you maybe didn't get my previous point, which is that CBT uncovers irrational thoughts and exposes them to reality. This whole thing is too confusing. There are too many unknowns. Like, do you mean he's giving CBT to himself or what? That's not really 'having CBT.' That's using some CBT techniques in some kind of ad hoc fashion. A therapist is going to recognise denial and challenge him about it. It's pretty easy to spot in a patient. Also if he's not talking to you about what he did, it's probably because he is catastrophising the outcome. If he could be more rational about it, it might actually mean he WAS then able to face you, so minimising the magnitude of it might not even be the terrible thing you seem to think it would be. That's just a couple of variables. There are more.

Ah I see another post there from you. I'm at work, just cramming some food into my gob between patients. It's Friday fuck yeah, so hopefully will have more time this evening to type the more considered response you deserve.

I also got confused about whether there was a therapist involved. His exact words were "... I've been doing CBT for the last 2-3
months, and I think I've mostly got over one of the main causes of this). I dealt with problems by ignoring and avoiding them..." I first took it to mean a therapist was involved, later I realized that was not a warranted assumption, I don't really know but lean a bit toward not. I already new he had therapy earlier, and that's where he learned CBT techniques. It is meant to be something you learn and do on your own, unless I'm grossly mistaken.


It is, yep. The idea is to train you to become your own therapist, and restore autonomy. Of course it is open to abuse, just as pretty much anything is.

I read a couple of books, one of them I think is generally very well regarded. Burn's Feeling Good. [pause] OK, I briefly wiki'ed up, I think what I could glean from that is it's largely meant to be therapist driven but having a book and doing it on your own can help. Then I got to the criticisms etc. section and that made me think it isn't quite as well accepted as I thought, with a fair number of recent results not so positive. One critic said what I've been trying to say, but without anywhere near the wordy confusion, simply "the self-deception encouraged within clients and patients engaged in CBT".


I guess I'm not sure what is meant by that. To me, it is the patient deceiving themselves which has got them to the stage that they need intervention in the first place. In the case of your erstwhile friend, he's convinced himself that social interaction is so dangerous to him that he must avoid it. That's pretty clearly bollocks. How is self-deception encouraged by attempting to restore a more balanced approach to situations?

It's this that bothers me, because sometimes catastrophizing something is not an error.


Catastrophising something is always an error. The very meaning of the term is that you make out or perceive that something is worse than it really is. What you want is not for him to catastrophise the situation, but to actually see it for what it was, and for the real effect that it had on you.

n the other hand, sometimes divorcing yourself from reality is the healthiest choice. Unfortunately, I'm terrible at that.


I suppose it depends on what you mean by healthy. Ignorance is bliss? But then how do you keep that going? Unless you're quite significantly mentally ill, attempting to push bad feelings or situations to one side doesn't actually work. They're all still there waiting for you, and have possibly got worse because you've just been letting them develop.

Corey Doctorow has a great comment that is somewhat relevant. When you're shipwrecked, you tread water as long as you can, not because it's at all likely that you'll get rescued, but because 100% of those that did get rescued tread water.


I think you tread water because every living thing will automatically take action which would appear to move them further towards perpetuation, even if the chances are slim. I doubt it takes much reasoning out.

Perhaps the best ideas along these lines can be found in a fair number of the Discworld books, often said by my favorite character, Death, commenting on the nature of the human condition. Another tidbit of relevant info is that pessimists are more realistic than optimists. Taking all of this together leads me to realize I gotta go take a leak.


There is a difference between a rational awareness that things CAN go wrong, and an irrational fear that things WILL go wrong. I can't think you would argue that worrying yourself sick that you will get run over to the extent that you never go out is realistic.
John Grant wrote:They say 'let go, let go, let go, you must learn to let go'.
If I hear that fucking phrase again, this baby's gonna blow
Into a million itsy bitsy tiny pieces, don't you know,
Just like my favourite scene in Scanners .
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Re: Do you accord ?

#114  Postby crank » Sep 30, 2017 4:12 am

I think you're focusing on the way things are supposed to be, and I'm looking at how they can go wrong. I used catastrophizing loosely, what I was attempting to get across is that some situations are catastrophes, or very serious, if you think you're catastrophizing one of these, but don't actually come anywhere near perceiving how bad the situation truly is, then trying to use CBT to de-catastrophize the situation ain't the right way to go. Or put another way, some folks really are terrible people, having them convince themselves they are not isn't the way to make them better people.

What about an irrational belief that everything will go right? It's back to that bit about pessimists are more realistic than optimists.

It's not ignorance is bliss, it's more like mothers who think they're baby is beautiful. I'll just leave it at that.

Have you read the Discworld novels? Death gets into these monologues pondering that which is man, in wonder and awe and bewilderment. These passages are not only hilarious but make you really think about a few things.

And I'm still left with my belief that if I can get the guy to talk to me, and stapling his feet to the floor is plan B, maybe C or D, and if we can talk without too much attitude or rancor, I think we could come to some resolution. And I think he''d likely benefit more than me. He's highly intelligent and rational, except for dealing with this issue. If all of that fails, I could just beat the crap out of him, greatly facilitated by having his feet immobilized. It's a joke, a joke! Everyone knows you can't find staples big enough and that you could deploy easily. I'm gonna end up having to use a nail gun I'm pretty sure.
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Re: Do you accord ?

#115  Postby Fallible » Sep 30, 2017 7:39 am

I typed out a lengthy response to this, only to accidentally close the tab and lose the lot. This is a second attempt.

crank wrote:I think you're focusing on the way things are supposed to be, and I'm looking at how they can go wrong.


I think you're catastrophising. :wink: I'm focusing on trying to answer your questions to the best of my ability. I've no idea what he's doing. Could he be bastardising CBT in some way? Sure. However, it seems that your problem, if I can phrase it like that, is at least in part with CBT itself. Any tool can be used for a purpose it was never meant to serve. That's not the fault of the tool. CBT is not a panacea. It's just one therapy model.

I used catastrophizing loosely, what I was attempting to get across is that some situations are catastrophes, or very serious,


Very, very few situations are actually catastrophes, and if you are sitting pondering whether the situation you're in is a catastrophe or not, the chances are it isn't.

if you think you're catastrophizing one of these, but don't actually come anywhere near perceiving how bad the situation truly is, then trying to use CBT to de-catastrophize the situation ain't the right way to go.


Something about this doesn't make sense to me. If you don't come anywhere near perceiving how bad the situation truly is, why would you be trying to decatastrophise it? You'd have to see it as a catastrophe to begin with.

Or put another way, some folks really are terrible people, having them convince themselves they are not isn't the way to make them better people.


You frame this as a statement of fact, but it's actually your perception. In the years I've been doing this job, I have never met a truly terrible person. Individuals react to experiences in strange and varied ways, sure, but underneath it's always the same - fear, distress, trauma, disorder, mental illness. I'm ready for any calls of 'lily livered liberal' anyone cares to throw, so that's fine. And actually yes, the way to make them 'better' people IS to help them understand that they are not terrible people. It's the difference between punishing and rehabilitating a criminal. It's the difference between blame and fault, and responsibility. It's the difference between hating the 'sin' and hating the 'sinner'.

What about an irrational belief that everything will go right? It's back to that bit about pessimists are more realistic than optimists.


What about it? It's irrational. I see a lot of that in the problematic gamblers I work with. I just wouldn't use 'normal' CBT for that, because it's generally used for negative emotions. There are other tools and techniques. As I said in my previous post, there is a difference between acknowledging that things CAN go wrong and being convinced that they WILL go wrong.

It's not ignorance is bliss, it's more like mothers who think they're baby is beautiful. I'll just leave it at that.


Ok, but you're talking about perception again. There is no objective definition of beauty. Do you think those mothers need therapy?

Have you read the Discworld novels? Death gets into these monologues pondering that which is man, in wonder and awe and bewilderment. These passages are not only hilarious but make you really think about a few things.


No. I read one as a teenager, but I never got on with Terry Pratchett.

And I'm still left with my belief that if I can get the guy to talk to me, and stapling his feet to the floor is plan B, maybe C or D, and if we can talk without too much attitude or rancor, I think we could come to some resolution. And I think he''d likely benefit more than me. He's highly intelligent and rational, except for dealing with this issue. If all of that fails, I could just beat the crap out of him, greatly facilitated by having his feet immobilized. It's a joke, a joke! Everyone knows you can't find staples big enough and that you could deploy easily. I'm gonna end up having to use a nail gun I'm pretty sure.


Well that's fine crank, after all you're entitled to your beliefs. It's all academic though, isn't it, since from what you've said, it seems pretty obvious that he has no intention whatsoever of sharing even an online space with you. The guy is clearly not firing on all cylinders. Obviously you can go on being hurt and angry and expecting things of him, but it's never really a good idea to hitch your wagon to a spooked horse, for reasons that can be easily imagined.
John Grant wrote:They say 'let go, let go, let go, you must learn to let go'.
If I hear that fucking phrase again, this baby's gonna blow
Into a million itsy bitsy tiny pieces, don't you know,
Just like my favourite scene in Scanners .
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Re: Do you accord ?

#116  Postby crank » Sep 30, 2017 10:12 am

You're playing loose wiith the word 'catastrophe', like there's some objective line above which it's a real catastrophe, below, no. The way learned to think about CBT, the idea of 'catastrophizing' didn't imply you were perceiving some social glitch as tantamount to your whole family getting raped and butchered by crazed Hun-wannabes. It was more about insignificant mis-steps or unnoticeable mannerisms, or whatever and the anxious will think everyone there noticed and will ridicule them for the rest of their lives, and lose all respect etc sort of thing.

I didn't mean all my criticisms of CBT to be connected directly to my situation, I had these doubts about CBT long before this crap happened. It's a technique that requires the identification of thinking errors and how to change how you think. But that assumes you can identify what the errors are, and what the 'correct' thinking is. And it's always possible you will identify thinking errors that aren't errors at all, so that changing your thinking means heading away from reality. It simply seems almost too obvious that anything that aims to change how someone perceives reality can go wrong, be misused, used in error, used inappropriately by people who are prone to delusion and denial, to errors and mistakes, essentially ending up with self-deception as that quote said.

ANd the baby thing, you must know what I meant there, far from really about a mother and her objectively ugly baby, and there are those, beauty may be in the eye of the beholder, butt ugly transcends that. It's not for naught we have that saying "only a mother'.

And I don't really want an apology, I want my friend back, and said that before. It's just that an apology is almost
a necessary though not sufficient prerequisite. Also more important to me is finding out what the hell happened to make him do what he did. And I sincerely believe it would help him by eliminating this years-long habitual behaviour pattern he's engaged in. He's reinforcing this as a goto coping mechanism whenever life throws him some anxiety, making him more prone to fall into it in the future.

When I say terrible people, i'm talking about people who act in terrible ways routinely, without a hint of remorse, ever. Are they terrible people? They might have huge swaths of the rest of their lives where they are saints. Let's just use the EULA compromise and say people that act in terrible ways a significant fraction of their normal days.

Thank You Fallibe, I really do appreciate you taking the time and making the effort to answer these questions. I don't mean to sound confrontational, that I probably have I can blame at least partly on trying to be as concise as possible when it would be easy for me to spew pages and pages
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