Do you accord ?

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Re: Do you accord ?

#81  Postby The_Piper » Sep 26, 2017 11:45 am

juju7 wrote:
The_Piper wrote:BTW, what does do you accord mean?

Image

That's what I was thinking of every time I read the thread title. :lol:
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Re: Do you accord ?

#82  Postby Fallible » Sep 26, 2017 11:49 am

Incidentally, accord means agreement, as in 'they were all of one accord' - they were all in agreement, and also to give or bestow something.
John Grant wrote:They say 'let go, let go, let go, you must learn to let go'.
If I hear that fucking phrase again, this baby's gonna blow
Into a million itsy bitsy tiny pieces, don't you know,
Just like my favourite scene in Scanners .
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Re: Do you accord ?

#83  Postby The_Piper » Sep 26, 2017 11:56 am

Where does accordion fit into that? :teef:
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Re: Do you accord ?

#84  Postby juju7 » Sep 26, 2017 1:16 pm

The_Piper wrote:Where does accordion fit into that? :teef:

It squeezes into a box.
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Re: Do you accord ?

#85  Postby aban57 » Sep 26, 2017 1:35 pm

juju7 wrote:
The_Piper wrote:Where does accordion fit into that? :teef:

It squeezes into a box.
:whistle:


Actually, it looks more like closing brackets [:::] :naughty2:
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Re: Do you accord ?

#86  Postby The_Piper » Sep 26, 2017 1:39 pm

:lol:
So it can be considered an agreeion?
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Re: Do you accord ?

#87  Postby aban57 » Sep 26, 2017 1:55 pm

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Re: Do you accord ?

#88  Postby Fallible » Sep 26, 2017 2:10 pm

Youse all are weird.
John Grant wrote:They say 'let go, let go, let go, you must learn to let go'.
If I hear that fucking phrase again, this baby's gonna blow
Into a million itsy bitsy tiny pieces, don't you know,
Just like my favourite scene in Scanners .
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Re: Do you accord ?

#89  Postby aban57 » Sep 26, 2017 2:35 pm

Fallible wrote:Youse all are weird.


I've never been told I was weird*. I'll take that as a compliment.


Actually, it was so obvious there was no need to say it.
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Re: Do you accord ?

#90  Postby Fallible » Sep 26, 2017 4:25 pm

:awesome:
John Grant wrote:They say 'let go, let go, let go, you must learn to let go'.
If I hear that fucking phrase again, this baby's gonna blow
Into a million itsy bitsy tiny pieces, don't you know,
Just like my favourite scene in Scanners .
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Re: Do you accord ?

#91  Postby The_Piper » Sep 26, 2017 4:38 pm

"I'm not really sure what I'm talking about" - Tucker Carlson
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Re: Do you accord ?

#92  Postby crank » Sep 27, 2017 11:20 pm

Fallible wrote:It's supposed to be spelt with an e, unless they are therapies which pay you compliments. I'm glad such things don't affect you. I have OCD, which means things which appear little to others have greater importance for me. I decide which conventions are ok and which aren't based on what I learnt is the 'correct' way at school and from home, where getting things just right was deemed more important than the substance. For example, we learn here that it's colour with a u, even though the u is not necessary to make oneself understood.

I looked it up before posting that. Spelling is not my farte. I was looking at the free and the saying nice things, I completely didn't consider the 'matching' definition.

That OCD seems like it would be quite susceptible to CBT, a lot easier than trying to convince yourself that using your salad fork at the wrong time isn't an existential catastrophe.
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Re: Do you accord ?

#93  Postby Fallible » Sep 28, 2017 5:26 am

Putting aside the fact for a moment that OCD doesn't cover every aspect of life equally, because it is a disorder and therefore not logically consistent, CBT is trying to convince yourself that using your salad fork at the wrong time isn't an existential catastrophe.

I think you might not quite understand what I'm saying, or OCD. It affects an individual in a pattern which may be described as peaks and troughs. Sometimes it is severe, sometimes less so, sometimes hardly there at all. It is also something which affects quite specific topics - eg. health, germs, responsibility - not just a general need to keep order everywhere. So for example, you can keep your work place as clean as an operating theatre, but be affected so badly by OCD hoarding at home that you can't get to your own bed. Mine is never severe, but has from time to time led to my hands becoming red raw from too much washing, and many other effects which have never brought my life to a standstill, but have certainly let me know that I'm going through a fairly anxious phase.

I'm quite lucky, because I'm trained to deliver CBT to people, so I can and do use some of those techniques on myself. That doesn't mean that it never bothers me. The thoughts still come. It just means that I can dispel them more easily. That's what CBT does. It doesnt take away the thoughts which lead to the behaviours, it just allows one to 'neutralise' them before they begin to cause problems. So I can feel uncomfortable when someone writes 'complimentary' instead of 'complementary', because it's not correct and incorrect spelling bothers me (one of my issues is about order in specific areas, not all areas), but not feel the need to act on the impulse to run around tearing every sign down.

In a nutshell, just because someone feels the feelings that OCD invokes, that doesn't mean that they are sick and need immediate treatment.
John Grant wrote:They say 'let go, let go, let go, you must learn to let go'.
If I hear that fucking phrase again, this baby's gonna blow
Into a million itsy bitsy tiny pieces, don't you know,
Just like my favourite scene in Scanners .
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Re: Do you accord ?

#94  Postby surreptitious57 » Sep 28, 2017 7:46 pm

I have never had CBT but have found that as I get older I am naturally letting go more and more and consequently mine is
less severe mentally. I used to be a very rigid black and white thinker when I were younger and now think this might have
been a symptom of my OCD. Now with me being a virtual recluse and more older I am less dogmatic to the point that it is
practically impossible for me to have a fixed opinion about anything. Now I still have OCD but it is very mild and about as
non intrusive as it is possible to be. I still have to perform rituals as any one with OCD does but it does not bother me and
indeed never has. It was only the mental side that ever caused me problems. And I have been performing all these rituals
for so long now it is like second nature. Though rather interestingly I no longer hoard stuff anymore since my mother died
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Re: Do you accord ?

#95  Postby The_Piper » Sep 29, 2017 1:51 am

Glad to hear it. Mine has been a lot better too, which I credit 2 of the medications now, that I take for other reasons. I'm certainly not severe, but any "non-germophobe" who watched me alone for a short time would see that I have an issue with germs. It's nothing like the severe cases you see in documentaries and stuff though.
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Re: Do you accord ?

#96  Postby crank » Sep 29, 2017 2:44 am

Fallible wrote:Putting aside the fact for a moment that OCD doesn't cover every aspect of life equally, because it is a disorder and therefore not logically consistent, CBT is trying to convince yourself that using your salad fork at the wrong time isn't an existential catastrophe.

I think you might not quite understand what I'm saying, or OCD. It affects an individual in a pattern which may be described as peaks and troughs. Sometimes it is severe, sometimes less so, sometimes hardly there at all. It is also something which affects quite specific topics - eg. health, germs, responsibility - not just a general need to keep order everywhere. So for example, you can keep your work place as clean as an operating theatre, but be affected so badly by OCD hoarding at home that you can't get to your own bed. Mine is never severe, but has from time to time led to my hands becoming red raw from too much washing, and many other effects which have never brought my life to a standstill, but have certainly let me know that I'm going through a fairly anxious phase.

I'm quite lucky, because I'm trained to deliver CBT to people, so I can and do use some of those techniques on myself. That doesn't mean that it never bothers me. The thoughts still come. It just means that I can dispel them more easily. That's what CBT does. It doesnt take away the thoughts which lead to the behaviours, it just allows one to 'neutralise' them before they begin to cause problems. So I can feel uncomfortable when someone writes 'complimentary' instead of 'complementary', because it's not correct and incorrect spelling bothers me (one of my issues is about order in specific areas, not all areas), but not feel the need to act on the impulse to run around tearing every sign down.

In a nutshell, just because someone feels the feelings that OCD invokes, that doesn't mean that they are sick and need immediate treatment.

My most extensive exposure to knowledge about OCD was from Robert Sapolsky's Yale lectures, pretty good and frightening. The salad fork thing was just a stupid joke, as in using CBT that way was much harder than whatever, because I find it hilarious that people get bent out of shape over such things, and not in an OCD way. Do people actually get OCD over such things, or is it they can get OCD over pretty much anything?

We've discussed what I am about to ask you before, at least peripherally. I've personally come across a situation recently that has me a bit POed to put it mildly, and it involves someone who has needed CBT to overcome Social Anxiety Disorder [SAD] issues. I'll try not to be too vague while attempting to get the relevant bit in and leaving out the too personal, the too embarrassing, and the too moronic. So someone does something to me that is pretty fucked up and refuses to even discuss the issue. Essentially ignoring attempts to talk with him. A year later, they realize they really did do something pretty awful to me and attempt to apologize, saying that how they ignored my earlier attempts to talk with them about it was due to their anxiety disorder, and that they were doing CBT to help with it and it was working fairly well. What they seemed to not realize is apologizing for not talking to me wasn't really addressing the issue of what they had done that was so awful to begin with. And then, they never bothered to see if I replied to the apology. Which is very convenient if you want to tell yourself you had apologized and could now wash your hands of it all, and since I couldn't object in any way, they can sit back smug and happy without ever managing to apologize in any real sense. And of course, they continue to ignore any attempts to communicate.

I hope that makes some sense, Dr. Fallible, and I must say, your couch is quite comfy, feels just like home. What about CBT? I'm getting to that, please bear with me for a moment. In the wiki on Social Anxiety Disorder, which this person told me to read as it is pretty good, it has this to say:
Major avoidance behaviors could include an almost pathological/compulsive lying behavior in order to preserve self-image and avoid judgement in front of others.


The fact that this mentions 'self-image' means it's talking about denial, or self-delusion. What I think this person is doing is exactly what that quote is talking about. First, he was in denial that he hurt me, then he was in denial that I was trying to talk to him, then the apology really only attempted to apologize for what he was still fucking doing which is avoiding communication with me at all costs because he knows I'm going to want to discuss what he really was supposed to be apologizing for. And he's still in denial because he still ignores my attempts to talk, and it seems he's still in denial about what he did in the first place. Lots of lying to himself, and then insulating himself from anything that could expose these lies.

Now about CBT and a big problem I have with it, and how it relates to this situation. CBT is great for working on not believing that sticking your salad fork in your steak is an existential catastrophe. But what about situations that you need to take seriously and aren't doing so adequately? Can't you, essentially, misuse CBT to help yourself believe something you did that was pretty awful wasn't so awful after all? I think of this as him using his anxieties as a shield to excuse inexcusable behavior and using CBT as an aid in this. In this case, his SAD is leading to him ignoring me, he's insulating himself from any contrary evidence, and to the fact of the original wrong done, and he's likely using CBT to help minimize any cognitive dissonance [guilt] that he really should be feeling. He appears totally unaware that his 'apology' for not talking to me was done with the same behavior pattern of avoiding discussing the real issue since he didn't bother to see if I replied. And this was a close, if distant geographically, friend who simply resorted to totally cutting off our friendship over the issue. What do you think of this behavior, and do you think he is possibly misusing CBT, using it to enable him to deny a lot of shit he really ought to be confronting?

So that's a big reason why I view CBT with a bit of suspicion, even though I've used it to some, limited, success myself in the past. Oh yeah, do you validate for parking? Thanks so much for your time, and any light you bring to my problem.
Last edited by crank on Sep 29, 2017 2:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do you accord ?

#97  Postby crank » Sep 29, 2017 2:49 am

oops
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Re: Do you accord ?

#98  Postby Fallible » Sep 29, 2017 5:27 am

I don't have time for a long answer now, but it seems to me that the problem is with him, not with CBT. CBT for social anxiety involves reducing the fears around social interaction via addressing the core beliefs which are holding them up. It helps you construct more realistic thoughts by overriding the skewed perceptions you have created over the years. If he's still hiding from talking to you about what he did, it's probably, like it says in the link, that he fears how you will see him and that will affect how he sees himself. He doesn't yet realise that by avoiding the discussion he is strengthening any negative thoughts you have towards him anyway. Either that, or he does realise, but the fear of what you might say to him, about him, is too much to handle. Unfortunately CBT can't fix someone unless they want to engage. You also say that he was having the therapy, as in it is still ongoing. It's a process, obviously, and as such takes time. So in answer to your question, I can't really see how one could misuse CBT, since it is a model which aims to help the patient become more realistic in their thinking patterns, not just as unrealistic in the opposite direction.

As for your question on OCD, you don't really get OCD 'over' specific objects or actions. It's an anxiety disorder, involving those pesky thinking errors again. You have intrusive thoughts concerning things like your health, your personal responsibility or whatever, and those are so unpleasant and tenacious that you have to try to find a way to stop them coming true. The intrusive thoughts then lead to compulsive behaviours. Importantly, these behaviours don't need to be ostensibly related to the fearful thought which has engendered them. That is how rituals start. For whatever reason, you can become convinced that using your cutlery in the correct way and never using it in the wrong way will mean that nothing bad happens that day, for example. Sometimes the compulsions are related, so say if you pass a kid on the street, you might have intrusive thoughts that you didn't pass the kid by, you ran him over. The compulsive behaviours might then involve repeatedly driving past the scene of the 'accident', or repeatedly seeking reassurance from your passenger that you did not in fact run anyone over. The behaviours are used to induce the feeling of some level of control in your life when so much is out of your control.
John Grant wrote:They say 'let go, let go, let go, you must learn to let go'.
If I hear that fucking phrase again, this baby's gonna blow
Into a million itsy bitsy tiny pieces, don't you know,
Just like my favourite scene in Scanners .
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Re: Do you accord ?

#99  Postby Fallible » Sep 29, 2017 5:39 am

Oh, I should add that avoidance is a major safety behaviour in anxiety. A safety behaviour is something you do in order to keep yourself safe from perceived harm, but which is ultimately counterproductive, as it only serves to reinforce the anxiety the next time you encounter the fear-inducing situation.
John Grant wrote:They say 'let go, let go, let go, you must learn to let go'.
If I hear that fucking phrase again, this baby's gonna blow
Into a million itsy bitsy tiny pieces, don't you know,
Just like my favourite scene in Scanners .
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Re: Do you accord ?

#100  Postby surreptitious57 » Sep 29, 2017 6:45 am

You are angry and impatient with him because he has not apologised to you for what he did to you. He has SAD so he finds
it difficult to even engage in non verbal communication. If it takes him one year just to pluck up the courage to apologise
to you for not talking to you then his SAD would seem to be quite extreme. It may be that discussing the thing in question
with you would make it worse for him. All you want is an apology. But if he cannot give you that there is not a lot you can
do about it. Non neurotypical people only have a limited number of spoons. This means their disorder prevents them from
functioning in the way that neurotypical people do and so for him to apologise would require that he has sufficient spoons
that he obviously does not have at this moment in time. Which might help you understand why he cannot apologise to you
right now. He probably needs those spoons for things that are far more important to him and you should try to respect this
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