Gender pronouns - the singular 'they'

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Re: Gender pronouns - the singular 'they'

#21  Postby minininja » Sep 15, 2019 8:38 am

I'm With Stupid wrote:
kiore wrote:The singular 'they' has a very long history and is not a modern politically correct invention at all.
Good article on this from the OED:
https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-his ... ular-they/

Yeah I've read that, but that's not actually the same usage at all. That's using 'they' to refer to an unspecified singular person, not a specified one.

But it shows it's also historically been used to refer to a specified singular person with an unspecified gender.
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]
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Re: Gender pronouns - the singular 'they'

#22  Postby Ironclad » Sep 15, 2019 12:11 pm

Woke.. microaggressions.. fucking spare me! This decade is full of pretensious baby wimps. Grow the hell up
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Re: Gender pronouns - the singular 'they'

#23  Postby laklak » Sep 15, 2019 12:15 pm

I'm woke as fuck, since about 8:15 AM. Might have a nap this arvie, though.
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Re: Gender pronouns - the singular 'they'

#24  Postby The_Piper » Sep 15, 2019 1:26 pm

Throw another shrimp on the arvie m'laddie?

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They motherfucker had lied.
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Re: Gender pronouns - the singular 'they'

#25  Postby Fallible » Sep 15, 2019 2:01 pm

:scratch:
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Re: Gender pronouns - the singular 'they'

#26  Postby scott1328 » Sep 15, 2019 2:15 pm

Ironclad wrote:Woke.. microaggressions.. fucking spare me! This decade is full of pretensious baby wimps. Grow the hell up

i love the subtle insight, and nuanced analysis Ironclad gives to all her posts. She is why I visit this site everyday.
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Re: Gender pronouns - the singular 'they'

#27  Postby The_Piper » Sep 15, 2019 2:40 pm

Fallible wrote::scratch:

I have a childish sense of humor, usually.
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Re: Gender pronouns - the singular 'they'

#28  Postby Macdoc » Sep 15, 2019 2:41 pm

Throw another shrimp on the arvie m'laddie?


arvie is afternoon ( arvo actually ) ...barbie and while the phrase is common no one calls prawns shrimp in Australia tho the phrase endures from Crocodile Dundee I think....Americanized.
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Re: Gender pronouns - the singular 'they'

#29  Postby The_Piper » Sep 15, 2019 2:50 pm

Macdoc wrote:
Throw another shrimp on the arvie m'laddie?


arvie is afternoon ( arvo actually ) ...barbie and while the phrase is common no one calls prawns shrimp in Australia tho the phrase endures from Crocodile Dundee I think....Americanized.

Is that where the phrase came from? :lol: :lol:
I figured arvie meant evening from Lak's sentence. Because it rhymes with barbie...I was being purposefully dumb.
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As for the thread's subject, we already use they when the gender is unknown. We can also use it when someone is gender fluid, and to me it's the same thing, so doesn't seem unnatural to adapt that usage. Someone who is gender fluid
(or whatever other term means not necessarily male or female) is, from my perspective, an unknown gender.
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Re: Gender pronouns - the singular 'they'

#30  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Sep 15, 2019 2:58 pm

I'm pretty sure a segment of every generation consists of spoilt, entitled crybabies. When those are the ones you pay attention to, it may give the impression there's a disproportionate number of them in that generation.

My mother thinks she had it particularly tough coming up. She never went to university and so never went into the associated debt, had two kids, owned cars and homes, had a high paying career, most of which she worked part-time in, retired at fifty-three to a house in Vancouver and travels intercontinentally for a month or more at a time up to three times a year. Based on the moaning of people like my mom, I often feel people in their fifties are entitled brats.

Truth is that segment probably is not representative of the entire generation.
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Re: Gender pronouns - the singular 'they'

#31  Postby laklak » Sep 15, 2019 3:48 pm

I don't know if they're entitled brats, but I do know that the things they're bitching about are very privileged 1st world problems.
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Re: Gender pronouns - the singular 'they'

#32  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Sep 15, 2019 3:54 pm

People who whinge about first world problems exist in every generation. What's reported on doesn't represent the generation as a whole, just some of what happens in humanities departments in North American universities.
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Re: Gender pronouns - the singular 'they'

#33  Postby Fallible » Sep 15, 2019 4:21 pm

Who cares whether wokeness or microaggressions point to entitled babies? If that connection can be made should we then automatically disregard their opinions or statements about what they would prefer? I’ve never understood this. It’s often been said that if you’re “too soft” on a child you’ll “ruin” them. Number one I’ve not seen anything that conclusively backs that statement up, but number two, who honestly thinks it’s their business to not “ruin” someone who isn’t even their child by paying attention to what they say? You can have any opinion you like on what you think of these “babies”. You’re just a reactionary twat if you think you can inflict your opinions on others by referring to them in the way you find acceptable, against their explicit wishes. Hence Scott’s comment above. What, exactly, does it cost you to be mindful of others asking specifically for something in relation to themselves?
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Re: Gender pronouns - the singular 'they'

#34  Postby laklak » Sep 15, 2019 4:29 pm

No reason not to try to respect their wishes, it's common courtesy. If someone wants to be refered to as 'ze' or 'they' or 'Elf Lord' I'll do my best to remember. Might slip on occasion, but it's no great shakes to at least try. If they take high umbrage at a slip of the tongue then I don't want to be around them anyway and will avoid their company in future.
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Re: Gender pronouns - the singular 'they'

#35  Postby Fallible » Sep 15, 2019 4:34 pm

Just to be clear, I wasn’t calling you a twat, lak. :)
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Re: Gender pronouns - the singular 'they'

#36  Postby laklak » Sep 15, 2019 4:59 pm

De nada, Fall. You can call me a twat whenever you feel like it. Hell, around this house it's a term of endearment. I think it's a Geordie thing.
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Re: Gender pronouns - the singular 'they'

#37  Postby I'm With Stupid » Sep 15, 2019 5:25 pm

minininja wrote:
I'm With Stupid wrote:
kiore wrote:The singular 'they' has a very long history and is not a modern politically correct invention at all.
Good article on this from the OED:
https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-his ... ular-they/

Yeah I've read that, but that's not actually the same usage at all. That's using 'they' to refer to an unspecified singular person, not a specified one.

But it shows it's also historically been used to refer to a specified singular person with an unspecified gender.

Can you quote the exact bit that shows that?
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Re: Gender pronouns - the singular 'they'

#38  Postby Destroyer » Sep 15, 2019 5:48 pm

I'm With Stupid wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
I'm With Stupid wrote:
kiore wrote:The singular 'they' has a very long history and is not a modern politically correct invention at all.
Good article on this from the OED:
https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-his ... ular-they/

Yeah I've read that, but that's not actually the same usage at all. That's using 'they' to refer to an unspecified singular person, not a specified one. It seems to me that people are using one historical usage to claim that a completely different usage isn't new. So that's why I'm interested to know if anyone has an example of it that goes back further than the fairly recent usage.

How is it fundamentally different? It's the same principle: using they for a singular person. What does it matter if that person is identified or not?

It matters in the same way that "a chair" is different from "the chair." It's a linguistically distinct usage.


Exactly.

Language has one purpose: to convey meaning! It matters not, whether I use the word turkey, when what I am actually referring to is a dog. All that matters is that the recipient of language grasps the exact meaning of its usage. If certain humans feel themselves to be gender neutral, and consider that languages, in general, have a tendency to misrerepresent their individuality, then, clearly, the solution is not to bring about ambiguity and confusion by using language that generally conveys a specific meaning, when what is now intended is to convey something totally different. The solution is clearly not 'they' when referring to specified individuality - this can only lead to ambiguity and confusion. The solution is to accept that language is not about individuality or gender, but the conveyance of meaning in a social context.
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Re: Gender pronouns - the singular 'they'

#39  Postby scott1328 » Sep 15, 2019 5:52 pm

everyone listen to Destoyer, she’s got it going on.
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Re: Gender pronouns - the singular 'they'

#40  Postby Destroyer » Sep 15, 2019 6:10 pm

scott1328 wrote:everyone listen to Destoyer, she’s got it going on.


Thank you. It matters not whether I am male or female, but that language is generally understood. If one wishes to convey meaning that deviates from usual concepts, then one has to be prepared to clarify.
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